Refereeing, Leadership and working with our Aging Loved Ones a Fabulous conversation with David Posner

In this episode of the "Aspire for More with Aaron" podcast, Erin welcomes David Posner, Vice President of Business Development for Elder Tree Care Management Services. David's dual roles as a healthcare executive and professional basketball referee offer a unique perspective on leadership, decision-making, and teamwork. This episode delves into the fascinating parallels between the court and the corporate world.

 The Power of Elder Tree Care Management Services

 Erin starts the episode by highlighting the significant impact of Elder Tree Care Management Services, which helps seniors, families, and individuals with special needs navigate the complex healthcare system. 

Essential Leadership Insights

David's extensive experience in healthcare management and basketball refereeing gives him a unique vantage point. The conversation shifts to leadership lessons learned from both arenas. Here are a few key takeaways:

 1. **Answer Questions, Don’t Answer Statements**

David shares a powerful piece of advice: "Answer questions, don't answer statements." This principle helps sift through the noise and focus on constructive communication. In leadership, as in refereeing, it’s crucial to respond to genuine inquiries while allowing people to vent without taking their frustrations personally.

 2. **Decisive and Confident Communication**

 Effective communication is a cornerstone of leadership. David compares it to the precise manner in which police officers and referees issue commands. Using short, definitive statements can project authority and maintain control over situations, preventing unnecessary escalation.

  3. **Understanding Team Dynamics**

 Just as referees rely on their partners to make accurate calls, leaders must understand their teams’ strengths and weaknesses. Coordination and clear communication within the team ensure that everyone is on the same page and working towards the same goals.

  4. **Handling Crisis and Momentum Shifts**

 Drawing parallels from sports, David underscores the importance of managing crises and momentum shifts. Leadership often involves making split-second decisions, much like a referee determining a foul. Recognizing the signs of a momentum shift can help a leader take proactive steps to maintain control and keep the team focused.

For those interested in hearing more about David's experiences and insights, make sure to catch his presentations at upcoming conferences. His unique perspective is sure to provide fresh insights into the challenges and triumphs of leadership.
His company ElderTree Management Services is doing phenomenal work.

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Transcript

Erin: 0:35

Welcome back to another episode of the aspire for more with Aaron podcast, where I have Mr. David Posner as my guest today. And he is the vice president. Of business development for elder tree care management services. Thank you, David, for being here today.

David: 0:53

Thank you so much. I'm really excited. This should be a lot of fun.

Erin: 0:55

Yes, there's lots of fun topics that we want to dive into today. but I. I'm fascinated by the concept of the Elder Tree Care Management Services and who you serve and how you serve them, and the depth that you serve them. So I really want you to take over and tell us about you, Elder Tree Care Management Services, and all the amazing work that you do for your families.

David: 1:21

Yeah, I'll start with my own quick short bio and that is I, I've been in healthcare for over 20 years, pharmaceuticals, medical device, private duty home care, even staffing, for the last couple of years. But, I got, connected with ElderTree. I've always known about ElderTree. They've been around for 20 years. And, basically what ElderTree does is they do care management. I love it. And so care management in the most simplest forms is the care managers. basically navigate through senior care, right? So they can help that senior, they can help that older adult, they can help that, even families that have, maybe children with, special needs can basically help them navigate through the healthcare system, find them doctors, find them lawyers, find them attorneys, find them assistive livings. Take them to doctor appointments. The other thing they do is that they advocate for them. So they'll take them to doctor's appointments. Maybe they'll, just do check ins. So I know we were talking a little bit offline as far as that, that solo ager, right? So that family member who doesn't have anyone around, either they live out of state or they just, they're, they don't have any children. we can be the ones that, That basically manages their care, finds them personal, private duty, gets them connected with hospice, or God forbid they end up at the hospital, now they have someone to call, they have, Elder Street Care Management.

Erin: 2:39

Yeah, that's fascinating. I don't think we have anything like that in my neck of the woods down here. And to what extent So if I am 75 years old and my children live out of town, or I don't have children, do I contact you in a proactive way? And then what services? Are you like able to give me because it's not just attention. It's also logistics. Correct?

David: 3:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. So yes. So you would look for, Google or aging life care manager. There's actually a website. Association that many of us are members of called, Aging Life Care Association. And there you can find the most, you can find a local care manager for your area. I am based out of the Washington, D. C. metro area. So D. C., Maryland, Virginia. But yeah, so once you call us, basically you would call us if Again, you need help navigating and we would be able to, come in, do an assessment, figure out what your goals are. what do you want out of this? Do you want someone that you can just call when you need, God forbid, you end up in the hospital. Do you want someone to be that companion or check up on you once a week, once a month, something like that? or you maybe just moved into the area and Hey, you need, Connections with, podiatrist or mobile or a mobile x ray person or, elder pet sitting service. Surprisingly, I have connections with all of those and many, many of my care managers do too. And so what we do is we're like a consulting firm in the sense that we're able to help people. Families and seniors help navigate, everything that's going on because it is confusing. And a lot of people what you mentioned is they don't really think about it, right? you and I are pretty young. we have not thought about, what's going to happen or what we should do. And unfortunately it's that incident and something happens. You're like, you know what? I need someone to look after me. And that person would be a care manager.

Erin: 4:41

Yeah. in my experience inside a community, I would see. Solo agers who would come in tour, who would benefit greatly from a community, but what stops them are the logistics. How do I do this? I can't do this. I have no one to help me. So instead, I'm just going to stay in an environment that I'm successful in, but I'm not like thriving in, and having a care manager, Helps like the momager and the business manager. Now you have a care manager, which is great.

David: 5:24

exactly. and a lot of times it's. Hey, we'll take them around, we'll take them to a lot of different, assisted livings so they can see it and we'll explain to them, here's the benefits, here's the features, maybe you want to assist a living that's got, a great chef, maybe you want a little bit more activities, we can help figure out what's the best based off of your own personal goals and what, what you want out of all of this.

Erin: 5:47

Yeah, I think. I know, even for people, our age, older or younger, there's a lot of people who don't really take the time to define what success means to them. we're literally just going down the road and with no clear understanding and just allowing life to evolve with no clear plan of how to navigate the ship. We see that a lot in assisted living. We see that a lot probably in schools and in many different group settings. And I think one of the keys to success is to know what you want and to be okay with knowing what you want. And sometimes those older generation doesn't think it's okay to know what they want. They want.

David: 6:39

Yeah. And it's funny. We get a lot of families that call us where, little bit of a family dynamics and I know, you know what I mean? I'm sure a lot of our listeners know what I mean, or, the daughter wants one thing, the son wants something else and mom doesn't want any of it. And so a lot of times they'll call us to come in and help just navigate, get everyone on the same page. And a lot of times it is, again, the senior doesn't necessarily want to go to the assisted living, We've got for lack of better words, we've got tips and tricks, being able to take mom to bingo, right? or brunch. And so that she can start to see what this community is like. And if she's going to brunch, maybe twice a month, she'll get to start to know some of the other residents. You'll get to know some of the staff and it's no longer the white walls and, her kids throwing her away. That is instead. It's Okay. Hey, these people are just like me. And so we're able to help navigate that and use our skillset of working with seniors to be able to make sure that they're in a situation of you're right. They might not know what the success looks like. They may not know what their goals are. They just know that they're frustrated. a lot of times we'll get calls from neighbors and they'll say, Hey, I don't have control, but my neighbors, is 75, 80, 85 years old and their newspapers are piling up and that doesn't usually happen, I think someone should check them on them and being able to go in there and just have conversations like, Hey, how's everything going? what are some things you could use an extra person with an extra help in hand. And sometimes we've gone in and just said, Hey, we're not here for you. We're here to take care of your dog. and on the side we're able to get eyes on Mom, eyes on dad to say, okay, food's starting to pile up, groceries haven't been taken out, medication looks like it's expired. And just have eyes and ears, to be able to help out. So the nice thing about what care managers do and who are usually, social workers or RNs or higher, is they have that higher level of skill to be able to help it. We also work quite a bit with private duty home care services, where a lot of times they have one on one nurse aides in there. But for some reason or not, they're not happy with the nurse aides. And a lot of times, we'll come in and it's either one of two things either one, they don't necessarily know how the, expectations of that nurse aide. Or maybe it's us help training that nurse aid. Hey, look, this woman's got, Parkinson's. So it's, you have to make sure she gets her medication every single day at three o'clock, not three Oh five, not three 15, not three 30. It has to be at three o'clock. So a lot of times we'll partner with private duty home care services to help educate their teams to make sure that, mom is getting exactly what she needs and being safe.

Erin: 9:21

Yeah. It's funny. You bring up the dynamic of. A parent or an aunt or an uncle won't want to do what their loved one is telling them to do. I live in a neighborhood where there is an assisted living community in the neighborhood and I have a trained eye to know when someone needs some help. And there was. An elderly lady walking in the neighborhood with a transport chair as a walker instead of a walker as a walker and instead of as a normal wheelchair as a walker or a wheelchair. And I'm like, clearly something doesn't belong in this setting, right? I was going for a walk. And so I just followed her just to see what turns what she was going to make. Long story short. She wasn't. Going in the right direction. And so I came up to her and I said, how are you? Do you need any help? And she's no, I don't need any help, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, I know she needs help. So I just followed her more and then she went very long ways outta the way, and I'm just following her and she doesn't know me. I'm a stranger. Long story short again, she goes to a very busy area behind a restaurant looking for a man. To help her with directions. And of course the man is just he's in the parking lot going in to eat some fried chicken and doesn't understand who this woman is and why he's asking her. And I'm tailing and he goes, are you with her? And I said, no, but I'm here to help her. And she's I'm just trying to get back. And I said, I know, but I know where to go. And so we started walking together and then she said to me, I just thought men knew better how to get places than women. And I'm like, that may be true, but I know how to get you to where you belong, So there are stubborn people who will only take advice from a certain kind of person and whatever kind of person that is changes on the day. And that's where I think care management services like, elder tree comes in handy when there's a dynamic between families. And sometimes families just have to call in a third party in order to get an outcome that is positive for someone, you know. I also think that assisted livings can use elder tree businesses like elder tree care management too, because you do have the solo ager and they do need help and maybe the next step isn't moving in right away, but there is something in between and getting them support that they need is important. And that is huge. It's a huge asset and differentiator.

David: 12:18

Yeah, we've helped many communities. help, for a lack of better words, just close that family. So that family, the assist livings had that family swing by 345 times. And for whatever reason, the family doesn't decide to pull the trigger. It hasn't pulled the trigger. Again, a lot of times it's because mom doesn't want to. And the, Assisted living will call us up and say, Hey, here's the situation. Is this something you can help with the families out, open to talking to a, like you said, a third party, nine, affiliated with the assisted living to be able to be able to help them. and we've been able to go in and partner and talk to the family and talk to the mom and be able to help move them along, it's interesting, another thing that we actually do with assisted livings is. And I love working with this, but unfortunately, there's a staffing crisis. And so they're a little bit short staffed, is being able to help their residents. Go to doctor's appointments, and everything else because one, they usually don't have that great of transportation and they don't, they're sure not going to let a employee go with them to be able to talk to them. So we are able to go to a doctor's appointment. We work with our do and find out, What's going on with the needs or, what do you really need to know from the doctor and be able to get all of that information. If, mom, is it necessarily completely honest with the doctor and what's going on? We can be that, that, that person that helps communicate back to the assist to living. And another example of how we partner with assisted livings is, the daughter who's calling a joke. It's the daughter that calls at three o'clock. And every time I say this, like the deal at an administrator, I was like, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Every single day three o'clock. Hey, my mom hasn't been seen. Hey, my mom wants some water. Hey, my mom needs this. My mom needs that. And you're laughing because this happens all the time. Yeah. A lot of times we'll partner with assisted living say, Hey. We can be the liaison. So instead of the dollar calling you and messing up your day and, and not allowing them to work because they know they're gonna have to pick up the call and never short call. It's never like a 2 minute call. It's always like a 30 minute call. And so we can be that buffer. A lot of times for those to be able to say, Hey, I'm You know, why don't you talk to, Elder Tree, why don't you talk to a care manager, to make sure that, we're all on the same page and we can be that buffer a lot of times for the assisted livings in a proactive way that helps both the family and helps the community.

Erin: 14:38

yeah, it's true. I would, in my experience, I would tell families, home health and hospice is a buffer as well, but if you don't have a need for home health and hospice, then you have other options and if they have the resources, absolutely have that buffer there to have more eyes, especially if you have children who live out of town, or if there's solo agers, it's just somebody who's working in their corner, which is really important. it's fascinating to me.

David: 15:08

Yeah, no, it's a wonderful field. I'm glad I'm a part of it. the team at Eldrie is absolutely amazing. Just their, the compassion they have for the families that. And we work really well, toward to each other. we're constantly sharing ideas. We're bringing in people to educate us. so it's a great community and it's a great service to be able to have that, that higher level person that's going to be able to check up on mom and give you a detailed report. So it's a fascinating service and I'm glad I'm part of it.

Erin: 15:35

Yeah, absolutely. Glad to know about it and to be able to shine a light on it. But there's this other side of this conversation that is fascinating that we want to talk about because business is important and changing lives and adding value is important, but in our line of work, leadership is really important and being able to overcome problems and, challenging situations. And we met. Through our shared, speaking engagements with American College of Healthcare Administrators. And then I read your bio where you are a basketball referee, which, I thought, my God, I got to talk to this guy because how fascinating is this? Would this be on a podcast episode? So tell us about this other side of David Posner.

David: 16:28

Yeah, this is the other fun side. I'm very blessed in the sense of, working in health care is absolutely amazing. And the fact that you'd be able to get back and work with seniors and everybody else is fantastic. But I'm a sports guy at heart. I've always loved sports. Bye. My background on that side is I actually used to be a ball boy for the Washington Bullets and Wizards. I used to be the, the kid that wiped the floor and rebounded and hands out water and all that stuff. And the story goes. My particular job with the Washington Bullets and Wizards was to work with the NBA referees. And for those that can't see me, I am short and white. and so my, my basketball career ended in JV. And so I, I love the game and I was talking with NBA referees who basically said, Hey, there's this other thing you can do to stay involved in the game. And it's a fascinating thing. And so I went to some camps. I learned how to referee. I started off in, peewee basketball, worked my way up in JV, varsity, and, Then some college D3, D2, D1. and now I'm very lucky that over the summers I work with a singer, songwriter, movie star, Ice Cube, who started a, a three on three basketball league called the big three on CBS. And, I get to referee in that. It's a bunch of former NBA players working in NBA arenas. and it's a lot of fun. it's very unique. It's very different. And, it's, I'm very lucky.

Erin: 17:54

That's amazing, but I, before we get into the details, I love the fact that from a leadership perspective, you acknowledge your challenges. You cannot control not being tall enough and not having the talent that other people do. So what did you do? You literally just took, you leveraged what you had and you started out small and you worked hard to make it to where you are today. that's a leadership lesson in itself. Not all of us want to start in Peewee, but look, we're starting at Peewee. Got you. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely.

David: 18:34

Yeah. I was just about to say, and it's, it's And it's not easy to, it's actually probably harder to become an NBA referee than an NBA player. so there's, probably, 55, 60 guys that get drafted every year in the NBA draft. but there's probably only five guys that move up to the NBA ranks as far as officials go each year. If that, anyone can be a peewee and, but you have to, as you mentioned earlier, Hone your skills to be able to move up each and every single level. And that's, it's one of the things that's, just innate in me as far as just, studying my craft and learning and working hard to develop it. So I can, reach pretty high levels and, do the games I'm able to do.

Erin: 19:17

It's fascinating. Okay. So being yelled at by parents in Peewee or being yelled at by former professional players, like which one's worse? Did you get yelled at by parents in Pee wee?

David: 19:30

Yeah, actually I did. I'll give you a quick fun story. probably my first couple years, I, so I started out when I was, 18 years old. And so I was, I was a freshman in high school. Then I moved into, to college. So I went to university of Maryland and, again, on the weekends or I'd have classes early, I'd go to games and do games at night. And my dad, wanted to see what this was all about. And when he's a basketball junkie. And so he can, comes to one of the games, a peewee game, not unnecessarily a high school game, just a regular rec game, at the community center and where I, where you do a three game set, And so at the end of the third game, or halfway through the third game, I'm referring like seventh grade girls who, don't have that much, control over their bodies and they run into each other. They fall down. And I have this one parent who just screaming at me. And. Just screaming, daughter goes down and there's, I don't call a foul because she literally ran into her teammate. and then, he comes on the course, you suck, you're horrible. And daughter goes off and I, continue on with the game. sure enough, he's waiting at the exits for me and I'm with my dad. So it's weird. Like I've dealt with this, but now my dad has to see this. And this guy is. Following me to my car saying I've got to take my daughter to the hospital and it's all your fault. And I'm sitting there I didn't make a run into anybody. It's like, how is it my fault? but that's, yeah, so it's. It's different. the PeeWee parents all think their kids are the next LeBron James and think their kid's going to provide scholarships. and it's really bad at the lower levels. It's probably a lot worse. The difference is getting yelled at by Gary Payton. and so if you look at my Facebook, I got a fun picture of me getting yelled at by Gary Payton. The difference is Gary Payton knows what he's talking about. Gary Payton, for those who don't know, is a NBA hall of fame basketball player. And when he's asked me to play. He knows what he's talking about. I said, look, the defender came from the right hand side and he hit me on the arm, which didn't, which messed up my shot. And you've got to call that because if you don't call that, then I'm going to retaliate and did it. And so it's a different type of conversation. but it's, you get yelled at either way, which You know, as, and I did in my talk and I do it in a lot of my conferences is yeah, that's leadership. It's being able to be able to handle crisis because anybody who's in a managerial position is getting yelled at one way or the other. like you said, you're an assistant living, right? you're getting yelled at by the staff. You're getting yelled at by the parents. You're probably getting yelled at by the higher ups. And so it's just a matter of. How do you learn from that? How can you, the benefit, the funny thing I joke is in a basketball game. I get that like 20 times, like you might get it like twice a week. I get it like 20 times in a game. And so I get, it's helped me. It's really helped me really speed up my career because I've had that practice of dealing with people yelling at me and being able to adjust accordingly.

Erin: 22:37

I recently came up with this phrase, and I think this I didn't come up with it. I heard it, but I've been like mulling it over in my mind. It's the being able to observe behavior instead of absorb behavior, because if you took every yelling, every Parents insult like that, or Gary Payton's insult and harbored it inside, like you would wither and die. You would have no confidence, you would have no skill, but instead you're able to rationalize it, observe it, dissect it. And I think in leadership, And I don't want to stereotype, but I am a woman. And for a long time, I struggled with internalizing people's complaints because I thought it was immediately my fault, and other people I know have done that too. But the skill to be able to look at things objectively is very important. we've got to stop letting it come inside and be internalized and start. Objectively looking at things like, where was my fault in this? And what could I have done differently? And let's be solution oriented and not problem oriented, So I'm sure you obviously have gotten a lot of practice with that. what are your tips? Or did you struggle in the beginning when a dad blamed you that it was your fault that she's going to the emergency room?

David: 24:06

Absolutely. absolutely. And still to this day, right? I'll have games where I made a call and I'm not a hundred percent on the call and now The team ends up shooting some free throws and wins the game. I'm like, man, I really cost this team the game because I made this call at this point. and I'll internalize it. however, I get the benefit of looking kind of bigger pictures. there's no way this one incident led to this. This is a whole game, but I'll give you, I'll give you the, one of the greatest pieces of advice I ever got for refereeing, and it's literally. I use it throughout my life and this is, it goes very much with what you were just saying, which is answer questions, don't answer statements and the way I interpret it is if someone's coming to me and complaining, right? So it's all on the basketball court. It's simple. It's ref. You suck. It's Hey, you missed that call. it's a lot of negatives. Sorry. It's not very much. It's not a lot of hey, good job. it's much more of what are you looking at? Why do you make that? You suck. it's a lot more of that. And, but similar to any type of leader in a type of role is people just need to bet. And that's the one thing I've learned that. If sometimes, and I have a 14 year old daughter, 15 year old daughter who have had to teach this as well. Some people just need to say something. There's a bunch of players that we deal with in the big three that, they're just going to say something. And then as soon as that play is over or the next play happens and that ball, we have the benefit of putting that ball back in play and the game starts going again, then they move on. And so the first part of it, as far as just Answering questions, don't answer statements, those statements, I just let people vent. And a lot of times it's the same thing and allowing employees, they just need to get something off their chest. They don't, it's, they don't need an answer, right? They're not asking me a question. And so unless they're asking me a question, I can just simply say, okay, or I understand. I don't need to, it's not me. They just need to get it off their chest. And then on the flip side, answering questions. This is when there, there's a situation that I need to deal with. Hey ref, what did you see? Hey ref, why did you make that call? Hey ref, did you see this defender move over and cut me off? Those are questions. I need to be able to answer that. I need to be able to say, this is what I saw. Here was my positioning. Yes. And then this happened. That's why I called this foul. Similar in, in, in the, a leadership position where it's like, Hey, uh, the state's coming in and, we're short staffed. How would you want to handle it? That's a question. I've got to be able to say, okay, we need to pull someone here. We need to hire this. We need to move this or, again, other situations where they're asking me a question, I need to handle that again. So it's, the biggest piece of advice I've taken from leadership and from refereeing is answer questions, don't answer statements.

Erin: 27:08

It's true. Overexplaining only gets you in trouble.

David: 27:12

Yes. Yes.

Erin: 27:14

And overexplaining would be answering a statement, right?

David: 27:19

And the other part of it is how, just like basketball, how quickly can you get the ball back and play? How quickly can we move on to something else? So if a family wants to call up and vent, that's great, but I need to keep control of the situation and say, okay, I've heard you, I understand. Here's what we're going to do next or thank you for calling me. I appreciate it. I'll, we'll be in touch. It's you've got to be able to put that, put that ball back in play and get things going again.

Erin: 27:51

Yes, absolutely. That's great advice. I talk a lot about momentum and momentum is like a sports, like you can use sports analogies for momentum a lot. And I love it. Like you can, from the TV, you can feel when the momentum is swinging. From a referee standpoint, can you pinpoint when. One, one team lost it and the other team gained it. is it literally just can you feel it? Oh yeah.

David: 28:23

Yeah, you can feel it. You can see it. and a lot of times you'll, here's some inside information is you'll see the referee start to look at the coach because, and I've gone to coaches and say. You want to time out right now? Because this other team is, yeah, if I see a team, because I'm aware of every, I'm trying to be aware of everything that's going on, right? I know what the score is. I know what the foul count is. I know what's how much time is left. And if I see a team go up. Six, six, Oh, eight, Oh, 10, Oh, 12. Oh, I'm going to start looking at the coach going okay, are you going to call a timeout and if I get by him, if there's a slope where I was like, Hey, you want a timeout right now? Because they, a lot of times they'll be like, Oh yeah. They don't see it, or you'll see the players just get, drowned, but yeah, it's, you can definitely feel it in a game for sure.

Erin: 29:17

Yeah, I feel like momentum starts with one small thing, one, from a basketball perspective, because I used to play, a steal. like one steel changes the entire game and it's just a belief, even if they're down 15, it's just a belief all of a sudden. Oh my God, here it is. And so we can do that. I believe changes it just like that. Yeah.

David: 29:41

And it's almost always, you're 100 percent right. It's most always on the defensive side, right? It's usually a steel, a block or something like that. It's funny. And I'll give you insights from a referee. The interesting thing on those momentum plays. is the team that is going down, right? So the team that's now 040608. Now, as a referee, I have to be aware of them getting more physical or trying to do something, right? Because again, similar to a mom and assisted living who she's called four or five times that sixth time she's getting upset and now she's calling more people and now she's calling she's getting louder and louder similar to a team in refereeing that put that team that's going oh four oh five oh six now they can't stop anything, right? They're dunking on the shoot threes. What I need to be aware of is God, they're going to do anything to stop this. They're going to probably foul them. Now I got to make sure it's a good foul. Not a, and not a, okay, you missed the first one. Now they've got a foul harder, right? That's the one that's the scariest thing from a referee point of view is okay, if you miss the first one, when they're trying to foul, they're trying to stop this run, then you better get that next one because you don't want it to get to a. Clear out, push or some type of intentional or flagrant file.

Erin: 31:03

Yeah. I'm going to talk about this all the time. He has a presentation for conferences about refereeing and leadership.

David: 31:16

Yeah,

Erin: 31:16

what an amazing topic one day I get to listen to it for sure. So what would be, you gave us some, but like to close out the episode, what are some of those top, give us a couple minutes of what those top similarities are and where you see, the experience benefiting and what leaders can do. Based on your experience.

David: 31:43

Yeah, absolutely. And and the ones I'll give you are the ones that during my presentation, I will, give you a little, nugget for, coming to my presentations is Yes. during my presentations I'll actually show, game plays and I'll say, and I, if you've ever watched sports and they have that, you make the call. Yeah. I include that into my presentation and I ask the audience. Do you have a fowl ear? Do you have it on blue? Do you have it on white? And I try to get the, the crowd engaged and have some fun with making these split second decisions. and and that's, 1 of the 1st lessons we, we talk about is split 2nd decisions, from a leader's point of view and from a referees point of view. and I use, the example as a police officer. in, in basketball players coming down the, coming down the middle of the basketball court and, run into somebody else, I need to have a whistle on that. I can't be like, let me think about this. Let me rewind it. Let me go back. what did I say? Boop, three minutes later, I can't do that. I have to be able to make that split second decision. am I going offensive foul? Am I going, a blocking foul? And. Again, same thing happens in, in leadership and work, right? We've, there's got a lot of times where our staff is coming up to us and family members coming up to us saying, what are you going to do? And you have to make a decision right then and there. And again, being referring and watching plays, learning how to be able to look at the, all of this comes back to, what knowledge do I have beforehand in my previous experience, that's going to help me with this, from a referee's point of view, was a defender. There was the defender standing still. Was it the defenders facing the opponent? All of those things matter. was the offensive player trying to move around them or did he go right through it? All of those things matter. Similar to a situation with, in, in leadership. it's a matter of being able to make split second decisions. The second thing, we talk about is, like mechanics and voice and presence. So. And in refereeing, I have a, I call the foul. I call, let's say, in that situation, I call a blocking foul. there's a difference between me going up to the table and reporting it, let's see. I think it was on red, 21, block, and we're going to shoot 2 shots, right? Versus going up and saying, red, 21, block, 2 shots. Comes cooked. with a lot more authority and a lot more confidence. And the example I give in my presentation is actually a police officer, no one who's ever been pulled over. I assume everyone in this world has been pulled over once you're at least 16 years old. And I'll use that actually, I'll use the example of a female police officer. And one of the things you notice is no police officer who's pulled you over says. excuse me, sir. license and, registration, right? Nobody does that. No police officer in their right mind has ever gone like that. Because what are you going to do? You're like, I didn't do anything. What are you talking about? You're gonna question them. You're gonna question why they pulled you over. Instead, every police officer comes by the window and says license and registrations. And even you'll notice, I read an article on female police officers who have a lower voice, to show some type of authority because even female officers will come to the door and say license and registration. Again, three words. It's really short. and, exactly what they want. And it shows that same type of confidence. We could be doing the same thing as again, administrators, executive directors, being able to be short, sweet to the point and show that confidence. One of the other lessons we talked about is teamwork, on the referee court on the basketball court I've got two other partners that I'm working off I need to know what they see what I, they need to know what I see. We need to know if we're on the same page we talked about momentum, are we calling a close game a tight game because it's getting physical, or are we going to let them play because it's a lot of outside shooting. So understanding our team members and being able to work along with them is extremely important just again, and Mr. Executive Director has a whole team around them that you need to know, the strengths and weaknesses of all that. And, last thing is, in basketball, every play. Someone's going to be upset, right? Every play you call a foul, once someone's happy and someone's upset and being able to, what we talked about earlier, being able to handle those types of emotions, handle those outbursts and challenges from coaches and be able to have, simple one line, concise lines that I can say, drive to the basket, player wasn't there, or defender moved, Or hit him on the wrist, right? I'm not going to sit there and give a long explanation of what I found, because as you mentioned earlier, that decreases my credibility. So instead, I need to be short, sweet, to the point, and be concise and delivering my message. And communication is just so key and in every well that we do. And yeah, those are some of the bigger topics that I talked about. I, like I said, I throw in place if I can do a quick, small plug, I'll be at lifespan, excuse me, conference in Ocean City in September. I'll be at the conference in Orlando in October. and, I think maybe one or two more, coming up, but those are the two, big national conferences that I'm going to be a part of. So I'm excited.

Erin: 37:14

Yes, that is exciting. it, I'm sure it's a fascinating presentation and so seamlessly ties into leadership. And that's what we need inside of our communities, inside of our healthcare, these days. What I have come to realize is that it's an energy game, right? It's an energy game. And where are we placing our energy and just exactly what you said and just comparing it to all the things that I did wrong and all the things that I finally have gotten right. And the evolution of that inside of a community is it is your tone. It is your presence. It is your knowledge. And your inflection, do you allow somebody space to, to come in and make things more complicated? And, I just find that presentation would be very valuable. Just like this podcast is episode has been, I appreciate it. You remind me of one of my favorite refs. And when I was in middle school, when I was one of those seventh grade girls playing, and then he followed, he grew into the high school ranks when I was in there too. And it's always nice when you feel like a ref cares, because there are refs who don't care. You know what I mean?

David: 38:33

Yeah. they're out for the money or whatever it might be. Yeah.

Erin: 38:36

Yeah. So I can only imagine. how good you do and how comfortable you make people on the court, give me your, who is the most famous athlete? Gary Payton's pretty big. those that's back in my day when I was obsessed with basketball. Um, who has been one of the most, nerve wracking anxiety, Moments of meeting for you.

David: 39:02

so it was funny. I, so I've been very blessed throughout my career. I live, like I said, in Washington, DC area. I did a high school game with Kevin Durant. that was cool. I've gotten to do the USA women's national team, before they went to the, London Olympics. but. The most, and, Dr. J is one of the coaches, Charles Oakley, Joe Johnson's one of the players, Nate Robinson, but there is, last year, there's, going back to Gary Payton, there is a point in time, so those, again, that know Gary Payton, his 20 year career hall of famer, et cetera, et cetera, and he's I think I got this play correct, right? I called a foul. Like I'm 99 percent sure, but he's an NBA Hall of Famer. he's seen a lot more basketball in his life than I have. And I'm like, man, I'm pretty sure I got this one right. But this is Gary Payton and it's surreal. I used to look up to Gary Payton, and now he's yelling at me. It's like, why is Gary Payton and Dr. J yelling at me? It's I love these guys. And so there is that part of it that's a little surreal. and it's, the other quick sidebar is, Like I said, Ice Cube is the owner of the big three on LL Cool J, is involved as well. LL Cool J was, videotaping the game on and putting it on Instagram. And again, he's doing the game. And so I happened to be in the shot. And so I, I retweeted, I was like, look, I'm on LL Cool J's Instagram. it's been fun. I've been very fortunate, very blessed. And so it's, I'm very excited. So it's a lot of fun.

Erin: 40:35

Those are cool stories. My favorite, this is really random and this really just goes to show you like, I really liked the underdog. I was obsessed with the Chicago bulls. If I remember correctly, Gary Payton was on the supersonics. Yeah. Yeah. Or the, yeah. I feel like they were super. but my favorite player on the bulls was Horace Grant with the goggles. He was just a man. I had his rookie card. I knew his stats. I don't remember them now, like he, but I was a forward, And so he was my person. So his twin out there, his

David: 41:09

twin brother, his twin brother played for the bullets. Yeah. Yeah. And so when I was a ball boy, his twin brother was playing Wizards.

Erin: 41:18

Yes. Very

David: 41:18

good.

Erin: 41:19

Oh yeah. I know my nine days of basketball. Oh, thank you for this conversation. It made my day and refereeing is great, but the work that you do right at Elder Tree Care Management Services is. It's life changing and value adding for your customers. and the leadership components. Comparing leadership to sports, which is something that I do, and I love to hear about the parallels really do change people's perspective and what health care needs now is a fresh perspective on the same problems and, I believe this presentation and this podcast will do that. So make sure you get David Posner. Think at your presentations because this is a fun conversation. So

David: 42:14

thank you for being here. And thank you so much for the opportunity. this was a lot of fun. I'm enjoying this. So I appreciate the opportunity. and cannot wait to see what comments I get about refereeing in there. But, that's, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me.

Erin: 42:28

You're welcome. You're welcome. And always for my listeners, Aspire for Bore for you.