We Never Had Control but We Can Create Influence: a conversation w/ Chris Heinz

We Never Had Control but We Can Create Influence

In the first guest episode of 2025, Erin welcomes Chris Heinz, owner of Westport One, a talent and recruiting firm specializing in senior living leadership. Chris shares his extensive experience in recruitment, emphasizing the importance of influence over control in effective leadership. They discuss best practices for hiring and retention, impactful interview techniques for both hiring managers and candidates, and the nuances of building a strong, positive culture within organizations. Chris also highlights the critical role mindset plays in achieving professional success and creating significant influence within the industry.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:15 Chris Hines' Journey into Senior Living
03:39 Key Insights on Hiring and Retention
05:27 The Power of Influence in Leadership
08:35 Challenges and Mindset in Senior Living
12:44 Building Effective Teams and Culture
21:24 Growth and Career Advancement in Senior Living
27:40 Creating Your Own Opportunities
28:36 The Power of Influence in Leadership
29:37 Maintaining Positivity and Mindset
30:59 Effective Interview Questions
32:39 Evaluating Candidates' Energy and Passion
34:50 Candidates' Questions and Their Impact
40:18 The Two-Way Street of Interviews
44:54 Generational Differences in the Workforce
46:20 The Right Seat on the Bus
50:04 The Impact of Conversations
52:32 Acknowledging Efforts and Closing Remarks

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Transcript

Erin: 0:35

It's not live. Okay. Ready. Ready. Here we go. Welcome back to the 1st guest episode of 2025. I have Mr. Chris Hines with me. He is the owner of Westport 1, which is a talent and recruiting firm. Westport one for senior living leadership. And so thank you, Chris, for being here today.

Chris: 0:59

Thank you so much for having me. Erin.

Erin: 1:01

I, I want to start off by saying, you know, I, I've listened to several a podcast that you have been on and I see the medals behind you and then we had our kind of pre conversation and I left that conversation feeling. So pumped up and living in the possibilities of life that. I could not wait to have this conversation today. So thank you for being a beacon of hope and positive influence in life because our profession is, needs more people like that. And I felt so energized after our last conversation.

Chris: 1:47

Well, I really, really appreciate those words.

Erin: 1:50

Yeah. So tell me about your, Journey real quick. I mean, you have, I'll just say this, I'll set it up like this. You have an inside, like understanding that most people don't inside of our senior living profession. You work with big companies and then you actually talk to leaders who you hire, get hired into companies. You hear the great, you hear the good, you hear the really bad and you hear the not so bad. Okay. You have so much insight and perspective for almost every layer of senior living. I cannot wait to tap into that. So talk about the journey of what got you here, and then we're going to dive into best practices on retaining and hiring people because you believe. They're really the same thing.

Chris: 2:45

Absolutely. It's the, my journey really started 27 years ago. That's when I got into recruiting all the way back in the 20th century, 1997. I didn't start out in, in senior living, the owner of the firm who's now passed on, who I've now taken over the ownership of the firm. He put me in engineering. I didn't know anything about engineering. I had friends in college that were engineers, but I didn't quite understand what they did. But what I quickly learned was the facets of recruiting and the importance of a talent acquisition and just as important, retention of that talent. Flash forward to 2001 is when we actually started our senior living practice, combined with our healthcare practice. Flash forward all the way to 2014. And that's where I intimately got involved in our senior living leadership practice. So I'm going on 11 years of day in day out conversations with not only the leaders of the organizations that that work across the country, from a hiring standpoint. But on the flip side, those very same leaders when it comes to their career and their aspirations. So you're right. We have a very unique, position to have conversations on both sides of the coin that really helps to, color way outside the lines of what this industry is really about.

Erin: 4:14

Okay, so give us 3 of the big, if you could say to anyone, here is what we need, here are some big solutions to the big problems that we're facing, because you see the data, right? You have lots of data. what would those be? I believe leaders need to be focusing on influence a lot. just. Being around people who can be a positive influence, just based on conversations that we've had and how I left feeling energized and positive and hopeful from a conversation, is influence in such a powerful way. So, what are the 3 things that you see that are patterns that we can really be focusing on at any level within the industry?

Chris: 5:08

And that is a, that is a monumental question. The three biggest things. So let me start by breaking a fallacy. The fallacy is people believe that they can control others.

Erin: 5:20

Yes.

Chris: 5:21

There is zero possibility. You're going to control everybody, control somebody, unless you've got a zapper on their neck. You cannot control anybody else. You can control yourself and you can control three things about yourself. You can control what you say, you can control what you think, and you can control what you do. But all three of those have a magic word in the middle. And that is you. Once you remove you from the equation, it's all about influence and influence is either controlled one way or what a terrible, double entendre of the word influence is used for the good or for the bad.

Erin: 6:01

Yes.

Chris: 6:02

So thinking about the big things that we can do is first from a hiring and retention standpoint. The leaders of the organization from the CEO and owner and investors down through the C suite, down through the regional operations, all the way down to the community leadership. They could influence their team, By the three things, I just recommended, or they said. You can, they can control what they think, they can control what they say, and they can control what they do. But the words that they say matter little if it is not followed up with what they actually do. That has a tremendous impact on retention. Saying thank you is such a magical and powerful thing. Saying you're doing a great job. Saying, hey, can we work on this together? And then working on it together with them. That influence has more impact than almost anything else. Culture is thrown around so easily, but culture is one to one. Person to person, person to team, and then the ripple goes beyond that. It is not, tablets brought down off the mountainside saying, here is our company culture. It's one to one what you say and what you do, and those things are impacted by what you think. So that's on the, the, the leadership side of their team. On the flip side, the professional in the role, and with the exception of the owner of the company. Even the president and CEO, if they don't have an equity stake, they're an employee. So this is, I say these words to the person at the very top, to the caregiver who's on day two, how you think about This industry matters greatly, because how you think about this industry has such an impact on what you do. How you think about the people you work with matters greatly. What you say influences them. How you treat others influences them. And if at the end of the day, you are not being treated the right way, you are not being told the right things, and the actions are not following up, Then again, from the caregiver on day two up to the CEO, you have to then look out for yourself and find where is the right place for me, where maybe I'm going back to step one. I'm already on step three or four, or at least I already know what situation I have. I know what's good. I know what's bad. I know the words they've said. I know who the company jerk is. I know where the coffee pot is. So you know those things, but now you may have to make that step back to step one, but you do that for the opportunity to go multiple steps forward. So I can't really crystallize those into a top three, but from those two sides, influencing others and influencing yourself really is one, two, and three all by itself.

Erin: 9:10

Yeah, I think we missed the mark a lot in training new, new leaders and even building the bench, right? Of leaders that could potentially take over, communities because we have so much regulatory and policy and procedure things that we, as a person, as an adult who grew up inside the senior living industry. From the time I was 19 to the time I was 42, did take a year and a half break to go to a tech company and sit in a cubicle, which wasn't my thing. But, mindset was never spoken about and when I first became an executive director, I really thought. That there was control, and I naively thought that everybody thought like me, everybody was motivated. Like me. All I had to do was say something as an executive director and they would do it. I mean, like, I, I, I literally thought that because that's the way I was raised and I did most things I was told to do. and it was a very rude awakening when I realized that. That's not going to happen. And how many times do we, as leaders make that same mistake over and over again? It's the same way with our kids. It's the same way with with lots of different things. And when we do change our mindset to realize, I can't control them, but I can influence them. And then how do we influence them? You have to figure that out. I tell new administrators. You have 3 months. Your first three months, you can actually get stuff done because of your title, because they're trying to figure you out. After three months, your title means nothing anymore. If you aren't doing what you say you're going to do, if you are working differently than what you're saying, and if they don't see you out and about, it's gone. It's gone. And those first three months are the hardest as a new leader anyways, because you're trying to figure patterns out and policies out and everything else. So I have found. I mean, just even in our conversation and watching other people and seeing the successes in my life and my career, when you know who you are and you walk in that consistently, you will influence.

Chris: 11:30

That's right. Absolutely. That's

Erin: 11:31

simple. It's that hard. But you know, it's that simple

Chris: 11:35

and you incorporate all the

Erin: 11:36

glory or all the whatever, but even though it's still you, it's still you in there.

Chris: 11:41

That's right. That's right. Like you said, titles don't mean anything. You mentioned the medals I have behind me. I'm a big runner. I love running. Any distance every distance as you could kind of tell from the those I got back there for the years down I'm gonna cross over my 300th race. but just yesterday I want to see how this shows up. I did this race. I have a dream 5k. Martin Luther King days today. Well, if I were to have a dream about this business, it really starts with what you just mentioned. And that is mindset. So many people let the challenges of this industry knock them down. So many people let others, other words and other actions knock them down. Nobody controls the six inches between my head, my, my ears. But me, it starts with you. You talked about those first 90 days as a leader. Yes. But if you go in there running scared, they're going to see it.

Erin: 12:40

They're going to eat you up.

Chris: 12:42

Yes, they will. And after those 90 days, they want to see your actions. And I can tell you unequivocally, 100 out of 100 times, I have never taken a what we call a job order or an intake call about an opening. I have never had a senior leader. Give us an opening for an executive director, let's say, and they say, you know, I really need someone who wants to sit behind the desk and focus on paperwork. Never. They need you in front of them. But in order to be in front of them, you have to have the right mindset. So you are absolutely right there.

Erin: 13:20

It's, I hear it over and over again. and honestly, there were even times where I was told to change things because I mean, I was very centered on the people, but, like, I know, because through my career, having turned around for communities from very underperforming to high performing communities, like, if you don't have the buy in of your team, you're not going to be successful. It's it, it's just, and I think what we're seeing now is the relationship, the better the relationship you can showcase with your people on a tour. The more trust and the more willing somebody is to choose your community over somebody else.

Chris: 14:01

That's right.

Erin: 14:02

And so as a leader, you have to know your team. And really as a sales director, you have to know your team. There is no differentiation there. You have to be able to influence. And in order to influence, you have to know people. It's not about you being known. It's about knowing what people want. But, you know, you can still follow policy and procedure and regulatory compliance. And get to know people along the way.

Chris: 14:32

Mm-hmm

Erin: 14:32

There are things you can do to do that. and there's a question that comes a lot that, you know, how did I get a lot? Is how do you build a team? How do you build a culture? Mm-hmm And. Somebody would even say, you know, when, when the frontline team runs the community, how can a leader turn that around? And we see that a lot, you know, and it's about, it's about taking control, but then using influence, you know, I am the one in control. Let's talk about it, you know, and, and getting their buy in is critical. Because the culture starts with the leader. A community is just a community until a good leader steps in and makes it a great place to live. That's the truth. I mean, do you have data that says otherwise?

Chris: 15:19

No, no. I mean, it's the, it, anything that happens without someone running the, the calls is luck and luck only lasts for so long. So play a playbook. It's gonna, it needs to be put together. Maybe it's already given to you. Maybe it's something that you have to morph. Maybe it's something you have to create. But you have to ensure that you are following good steps. But you also have to be willing to make changes quickly on the fly. Because no community is the same. I don't care what article is out there saying that everything is the same. That is a complete fallacy. Four communities lined on the same street are going to be run four different ways. Are going to have four different populations of residents. And four different ways are going to need to be done for those residents within the basics of a simple framework. But you have to listen to what the needs are. And that holds true to the residents, that holds true to your team. Jimmy Johnson, one of the famous coaches of the Dallas Cowboys of the 90s, went, ran, or won three championships, went to five Super Bowls, I think maybe five Super Bowls. I'm a Cowboys fan. So to me, he went to 15 Super Bowls in seven years. but he used to always say, I treat everybody exactly the same. That's because I treat everybody different. What John needs is different. What Mark needs, what Mark needs is different. And what Sally needs. So you treat the people as they need it. Not one way fits all, but the word influence matters greatly in how you are treating them and how you are working with them because you are trying to influence their actions, not trying to control what they do.

Erin: 17:12

You, you made a comment on our, our pre conversation and you said you interviewed someone or you were Trying to find them someplace to work. I'm not certainly the dynamics here, but and this person was 1 of the most aware smartest. understood all the dynamics of the position that you had ever interviewed.

Chris: 17:36

Yeah.

Erin: 17:37

And that got me thinking, what does that mean? So explain to me what that means. What was I mean, I'm sure you have spoken to many people. What does that. When you think that, what did this person say?

Chris: 17:56

No, it's what it's what they say and how they say it. And trust me, we have spoken to thousands of leaders within senior living and pretty much most of the leadership roles from the community leadership. To the regional, to the C suite. So when, when you have that type of, of data, that those quantity of conversations, you get a pretty good feel pretty quickly, whether a someone is any good at what they do B, whether they enjoy what they do and not just enjoy in their company, but enjoy the industry and see whether they can have an impact down the road. And usually we get that type of gut feeling three to five minutes into the conversation. And it's just, it is further solidified every minute that we talk to them every now and then it takes a step back, but then it goes usually two or three steps forward. So, when I was speaking about an executive director, that's one of the most aware executive directors that has a feel for. Think of baseball. They call them five tool players. The ones that can hit, run, throw. they, they, they just have it all. Well, if you had a five tool executive director, it's because they understand all facets of the business and they operate at an extremely high level. In all facets of the business with resident and family engagement. And you and I both know how critical that is that can make or break a community with team development. And I'm not just talking their leaders. I'm talking all the way down to the caregiver who's on day two. Development of the team culture building, and this is where culture is created. One again, one-to-one conversations, not from from the top down. So they can build a culture the moment that they're in a community, but they also have the other intangibles that are critical for those type of roles. They can manage the budgets. They have incredible, incredible awareness of NOI, not for the sake of cutting, but for the sake of building. And sometimes you build by cutting. But they understand the good and bad there. And then the owner and investor relations. Because that's just as critical. I think long gone are the day of an investor just giving money for a community and once a year asking to see a P& L. I don't see those at all. The investor groups that we work with and we have a couple that we work on a nationwide basis, they are intimately involved in the operation. The success or failure of Those communities and almost all of them have some type of direct interaction with the executive directors and the regional teams, not just at the C level. So somebody who can do all of those things, the development, the culture building, the family and resident engagement, the NOI and the financial side and the investor relations, that's someone who really, really excels in this industry. And what I love about individuals like that is not every one of them. And this might be a shocker for you, Aaron, but not every, not every one of them want to just keep going up the corporate ladder. We have one right now, out in the West who very easily should be a regional or VPO, but their heart is in community leadership. They've turned down regional roles because their heart is at the community level of being able to see the impact directly with the residents, with their families, with the team, and that drives them because back to that magic word, that's where their influence is the greatest.

Erin: 21:50

Yeah, it's, it's true. I think sometimes we get lost and this profession, is like any other profession. Like, I'll just speak for my story. It's like, you see people and friends climbing the ladder and you think you want that, but that means climbing the ladder in this profession is different than others because it requires a lot more commitment, potentially, depending on where you live. And you work in this environment for many different reasons. And if it's purpose and impact and, and all those intangible things, moving up the ladder, you miss. So much of that.

Chris: 22:35

Yep.

Erin: 22:36

You know, the day everybody

Chris: 22:37

wants to move up when they're young. Everyone does. I mean, you come out of your, whether you're coming out of college or whether you're coming out of high school and going into the trades, everyone has the mindset because it has been ingrained in their head that you need to move in advance. But moving and advancing does not have to move up. It could be within yourself. It could be with the influence that you have with others, but very, very few people understand that when they're young in their career, they learn that as time goes on, as they see others move up and then move out.

Erin: 23:09

Yeah, I was at a, I'll never forget this. I was at a leadership meeting and the vice president of HR made a comment about how a lot of people in this room will be executive directors forever. I mean, those weren't the exact words, but it was just like, and that's okay. That's, that's the profession that we're in. And that just hit me in such a, like, I felt like the breath had been taken out of me because I knew that that was me. And. Well, I assumed that was me, but I did not know what, what you just said, right? Like growth to me was so external and it's embarrassing to really even think about really, but like growth to me was so external. You're moving up the ladder. You're doing this. It was never about internal growth and that was a perspective I never, ever had. And I don't understand why. It just was never, it was always, you got to grow here. You have to grow here. You have to grow here. No one was ever saying to me, well, we got to do some, some work here.

Chris: 24:24

That's right.

Erin: 24:25

And you know,

Chris: 24:26

growth, growth, growth doesn't come in defined fashion all the time. And the story that trickles into my mind, anytime I think about that, is literally when I interviewed for the job that I started in June of 1997. I started June 23rd, to be exact. Well, on June 5th, I had my first interview. And, Phil, who is the owner and founder of the firm, he had me meet with one of the other account executives in the firm as a peer interview. And when I sat across the table from that person, the person looked at my resume, saw some advancement, saw a lot of sales, and she basically looked me in the eye and said, Chris, if you have any desire to move up in this company, leave now. It's never going to happen. Phil's never going to let anybody do anything other than what you're doing. So if you're good with that, come on board. If you aren't, get out. But guess what? At that time, that's what the advancement opportunities were. And she tried to beat into my head, you're never going to do anything other than what you're going to do in the job. Well, within five years, I had three promotions. None of them were defined. They were created through my performance, through what the organization needed. So when you talk about growth, and we talk about that in our industry, there are defined roles of growth. An executive director can move to an operations specialist, can move into a regional role, can move to a VPO role. But guess what? There are other ways to grow. You could possibly have just as much impact and as much meaning by growing through mentorship. And that doesn't require travel four to five days a week. Leaving your house on Sunday night or Monday morning, coming back at midnight on Thursday to have an office day on Friday. So growth can come in so many different forms beyond the defined structure that we traditionally have in senior living right now.

Erin: 26:25

It requires a lot of humility. It requires and that's something that I've realized over time as well is unraveling the preconceived notion of what growth is and the humility that's required in that. And then starting all over and realizing, Oh, my God, I had that all wrong.

Chris: 26:49

That's right. Yeah. And then,

Erin: 26:51

and then figuring out the path from that, which is, I really think moving forward as a, as an industry, as a profession, like that is where we need, that's where we need to be.

Chris: 27:04

That's right. That's right. And again, it's going to come in different forms. Yes, I guarantee you five years from now, they're going to have the same traditional roles that we have, but one or two or three new type of roles are going to come about that the leaders haven't even known are needed because it's going to be based upon the evolution of what's needed at the time. So you have to be willing and able to jump on those opportunities when they come. So when you think of it from the, the executive director, I'll stick with that as the example of them getting passed over for a regional role. Because they brought somebody in from the outside. Kind of like they're, they've never, said that they, are going to do something different than their culture is. Every organization says they promote from within. And I truly believe that the vast majority believe that they need to do that. But it doesn't always happen. So if you do get passed over because they bring someone in externally, does not mean That your opportunities for growth in that organization are gone forever. But it doesn't mean that you need to stay there until the dawn of time to wait to see if another one might come. So I realize I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth right there, but it is true. You need to let them know you want opportunities. But the challenge is those opportunities in their minds are only, well, we have these three roles. That's it. Sometimes you have to create your own opportunities. And if you try and try and try, and what you attempt to do, and you try, attempt to give, and you attempt to give, and it is not reciprocated, that's when you have to make the decision, where can I go, where my giving, Can be reciprocated and be acknowledged.

Erin: 29:01

Don't stay and work in a bunch of negative energy and resent it.

Chris: 29:06

That's right.

Erin: 29:07

Don't do it. That's the worst mistake you can make.

Chris: 29:11

Yeah. As long as you have tried to influence that negative energy. Yes. So, again, back to that influence word, culture word, those fallacies that are out there. It starts one to one. An executive director, a director of nursing, a sales director, a regional director, they have the ability to drop the pebble in the water and have a minimal, a minor, minor impact. Minuscule positive influence that could change the course of that organization because every community is really its own organization. Yes. They may have a corporate company that owns them that runs them that manages them. But if you think of every community at its own organization, that ripple. As miniscule as it might be, can impact that organization in a very short amount of time. So if you have tried to influence it and then it has not been impacted, that's when you have to start looking out for yourself.

Erin: 30:12

Have you always been this positive? Like forever?

Chris: 30:15

Annoyingly so, unfortunately, my mom was a big believer in, in, in, in you can do anything. so I've, I've lived that life all, since, since, I mean, childhood, we moved from California to Hawaii because she thought it'd be better for us. Well, it was a cool place to grow. A great place to grow as a kid. Okay. And seeing that possibility. Really has impacted me and I just don't let things get me. Don't get me wrong. I have bad days I have bad runs I have bad moments But because I think the way that I do I have the ability to try to change it And not be as impacted on the vast roller coaster coaster of the highs and the lows Because i've i've worked my mind that I can control me And if I can control me, as long as I'm pretty positive, I have an opportunity to do positive things.

Erin: 31:13

It's really not about the glass being half full or half empty. It's just being thankful that there's a glass with some liquid in it. That's right.

Chris: 31:19

That's right. And like my coffee cup, it might be three quarters empty right now, but there's a pot out there. I could fill it up again.

Erin: 31:26

I know.

Chris: 31:27

Just like my mindset. I can change my mindset by the things I put into it.

Erin: 31:33

So, true. Okay. Speaking about influence and all the data that you have to offer us, I think it's important to ask you. You talked about interviews a little bit. What do you think for? I mean, what are some top interview questions that you like to ask and then what would be a good interview question for, like, an executive director to ask? Someone, a manager that's coming in and we can Absolutely.

Chris: 32:00

Yeah, end on that because that's a great

Erin: 32:02

topic.

Chris: 32:03

That's right. again, I'll talk to this from, from both sides of the coin. One from the interviewer standpoint. Please, for the love of all things you love, don't ask the question, tell me about yourself. Because you might be looking for one thing. You might be looking to see if they can tell something in a short and concise way. But they may be thinking that they, that you want to hear from the beginning of time and 45 minutes later, you've gotten to where you are right now. Tell me about yourself does not give them the proper framework. When you are interviewing, ask questions that give the proper framework to get what you're looking for. So front load the question with a little bit of setup that will get you a good, impactful answer. Something as simple as, you know, in the last 12 months, what are you most proud of? How different is that than what are you most proud of? And even going even further, I'm sure you love your family. Beyond your family and your personal accolades from a professional standpoint in the last 12 months, what are you most proud of? And if the response that you get does not get, I'm going to talk about this from either a face to face standpoint or a video virtual standpoint like this over the phone, you don't get this, but very, very few interviews today are done via phone anymore. They're done either via video or in person. But when they start answering that question, and you do not see a glimmer in their eye, if you don't see them percolate up a little bit in their chair and get excited and lean in a little bit, They are probably not going to have the energy you need if their story is, well, you know, I'm, I'm most proud of the, the NOI report that we had last quarter. Wow. What an impactful answer. That's what you're most proud of. So energy into that answer that that question lets you see their energy level lets you see their personality. So that's from the, this one example on the hiring manager side and the interviewer side on the candidate side, a question that we always coach our candidates to ask them that goes back to the beginning of time of, of, of, recruiters and, and hiring coaches and any article you could see going back to the sixties is, do you have any concerns about my ability to do the job? Cool. Well, here's the question that I love coaching a candidate to ask. And that is, how can you see me being successful in the first three to six months on this job? And now it is time for that candidate to actively watch. Does that hiring manager go coy? And do they go, well, I mean, I think you could, you could, you could, you could do a good job. You are not getting that job, buddy. If that's the type of answer you get, but if you see the hiring manager, all of a sudden perking up a little bit, leaning in a little bit, and you start seeing their voice change a little bit saying that they can see you being impactful here and being successful because of your experience doing this and because of the story you told me about that. And I could really see that your energy and passion are going to really have an impact with, with Bob. When you start getting that type of reaction from them, not a guarantee you're going to get the job, but you've got a pretty good chance. Thanks. And the secondary part benefit of that question is very few interviews are done in a silo. Very, very few or hiring decisions are made by one person. So when that interview is done, that hiring manager, that CEO, that president, that VPO, that regional, that executive director interviewing, a, a member of their team, they're going to talk to somebody else. And that somebody else is going to go, how'd the interview go? And usually the response they're going to give is, Oh, it was good about this. It was bad about that. But if you've asked the question, how can you see me being successful on this job in the first 30 to 60 to 90 days, first three to six months, whatever timeframe you want to give. And they respond in a positive way. You have psychologically created them answers in their head when they got to go talk to somebody else. About how the interview went and if they're ingrained in their head already those words are going to come out again So you were helping yourself if it went well So you can go to the negative any concerns about my ability to do the job and you could try to Swarm your way around and try to answer those concerns Or you could flip to the positive And go into how can you see me being successful in this role? What type of impact do you think I could have based upon the responses I've given you to be impactful in this role? You can choose the words that match your own style, but you're trying to see what answer they give you because that will have an impact on that immediate interview, on your likelihood of getting the job, and on them talking to somebody else.

Erin: 37:09

Yeah, I was helping 1 of my coaching clients get ready for a, for a big interview and it, it's. It's convincing people that they have the right to ask questions and that even though you want this opportunity, and it's a big opportunity for you, you have to make sure that it's the right opportunity for you and you have control and influence in that room just as much as they do, because you want to make sure that it's the right position for you. So, how we word the questions. is important, how we think about them, and, and the knowledge going into the interview. But as a candidate, you have the opportunity to ask questions too. And that's an experience.

Chris: 37:55

You are mandated to ask questions, in my opinion. I have never hired, again, been doing this for 27 years, we've had a firm as large as 38 people. I've never hired a recruiter, when I ask them, do you have any questions? And they say, no, I think you've answered everything. Never. So you are mandated to ask something. In that interview, because your questions show your interest. Your questions show your, your, your thoughtfulness. Your questions show your preparedness for the interview. If you cannot go into an interview without one or two questions that you could ask them, you are not going to get that job. Even if it's a question that it doesn't matter if there's already answered. Hey, when you were talking about blank, could you elaborate on that a little bit? That's a question that it doesn't matter what it is. If they truly were the most magical interviewer and they answered every single thing that you, you could have asked, you had a list of 15 things you were getting ready to ask him about. And they, Oh, they checkmarked all 15 of them. You could ask them to elaborate on something. Never ever leave an interview without asking something. You could tell I get a little passionate about that.

Erin: 39:09

Yeah, well, it's true. I mean, I, I saw, A post, and I don't even remember where, and it was on LinkedIn, and it was just about how, you know, there's not a lot of training on interviewing questions for leaders Yeah, right. And so a conversation like, this is just so eye opening and now we have lots of opportunities to find that education for ourselves. The problem is, do we have the time because time and attention honestly, inside a community, a leader inside the community time and attention is your greatest asset. And so how you choose to spend that is really, really important because there's not a lot of time. but I think. Interviewing knowing what you want and need as a community and you as a leader, right? Your strengths, your weaknesses, what the community needs at the moment we knowing that mindset boundary and energies are important. And you just told us what to look for to see if the energies match. Hello. That's so powerful. You know, like, these are things. These are the non verbal, the, you know, soft skills that are actually probably some of the skills you need the most that are not necessarily brought to our attention as much. So very, very, very, very valuable content.

Chris: 40:28

Well, it's so far beyond skills, duties and responsibilities. The duties and responsibilities and your skills are what got you to the interview. Beyond that, if the interview is effective, that's five minutes of the conversation. Now it's about, are you the right fit? Are you not the right fit? And how could you be the right fit? But guess what? This is gone are the days of this being a one sided interview. This is not a matter of the hiring manager asking questions and the candidate answering, hoping to get the job. Questions are asked off both sides. And visually, that really looks really strange that I'm playing with my hands right there. But I do it on purpose, because it is a two way street. Just as much as the interviewer is interviewing you to see if you are the right fit, and whether you, if they think you could have an impact on the job, As the candidate, you are interviewing them to determine if is this the right organization, is this the right leader, is this the right team, is this the right culture, from the words they say of their culture at least, that where I feel I could be a fit, and where I could have an impact. If all you are looking for is a job, you can get one. But odds are, you're going to be looking for a job nine months, twelve months, fifteen months down the road. If you're looking for a place where you can impact, that's where you have a chance for some longevity. And longevity is unfortunate in our day and age now. Again, I started in 1997. In 1997, the average tenure of a professional, this is not senior living, this is across the board, the professional defined as a college, degreed, individual or someone in management and above if they didn't have a college degree. The average tenure is 4. 8 years pre COVID. So I have to throw out the COVID years because the only reliable number they've not come out with a more reliable number since COVID. So I'm gonna go off that time frame of pre 2020. The average tenure was 2. 7 years. Add our industry to the mix. average 10 years, not that I bet. And the clinical side, 15 months is good tenure and that is so sad to say. On the sales side, you have the outliers, the five and 10 years sales directors, but the norm is 12 months to two years. Executive directors is a little more, the good ones two to five years. So it is sad that 10 year has dropped so low, but that is the reality. And unfortunately, there are still hiring managers who will only look at candidates who have five plus years with their community. Well, guess what? In any given market, there might be one or two of those. And one might have been the one that you just let go. So we have to get beyond the what was and deal with the what is. And that is a two way street as well. So back to that interview thing, it is no longer a one sided interview. It is a two sided interview. So a hiring manager can never be offended by a question being asked that might ruffle their feathers a little bit. Such as, I've been doing my checking. The reputation of the organization in this market Has not been that great. I'm sure it is across the country, but in this market, it's not that great. What are you guys doing to change that? Because what you're doing is going to impact my ability, should I be chosen to hire the right associates and right team members to make this organ, this community great again. Very few candidates are afraid to ruffle feathers like that, but boy, do you change the table set up when you do so no longer are you on one side of the table there on the other side of the table. Now you've brought the chairs together. In a virtual sense. Now you guys are talking about this together. And if you have a hiring manager who doesn't like you asking those questions, that's probably not the right organization for you.

Erin: 44:29

No. Yeah. I mean, because people will instantly feel threatened by those questions. And now granted, we have, as a, as a candidate, we have a responsibility to say them appropriately.

Chris: 44:39

With the right tone and inflection. Absolutely. You say that in an accusatory way. Dude, I hear your organization sucks. What are you doing about it? That won't go over very well.

Erin: 44:50

Yes, tonality is important, but it is a very valuable question. And if you're looking for a leader, that signifies that they are a leader.

Chris: 44:59

That's right. And that they're in the game, that they are not just looking for a job, that they're looking for a place they can have impact.

Erin: 45:06

And impact starts with influence.

Chris: 45:07

That's right. And influence, you start with what you think and how you think. Start, again, it comes back to you. It all, that vicious circle, it all comes back to you. What you think, what you say, and what you do.

Erin: 45:19

Yeah, I mean, it really does. I mean, I talk to people and they instantly will say things that I can, you know, of course, you hear it. Nobody wants to work anymore. I can't get anybody to do anything. You know, things along that line, and there are elements of truth to that, but the greatest divide is generational, and it is certain people not wanting to change who they are to meet the people that they say that don't want to work anymore.

Chris: 45:51

Yeah, and the generational side, it does have a little bit of challenge to me, because they're saying, oh, no millennial or Gen X er, or Gen Z er wants to, wants to work hard. That's baloney.

Erin: 46:05

Let me tell you,

Chris: 46:10

yes,

Erin: 46:11

it does

Chris: 46:11

not matter what generation pocket somebody follows. And I think what now we're in the generation alpha is the new workforce. And now they're going to go off the Greek alphabet for the rest of the generations to make it easy. Well, it's just a band of time. I have met incredibly hard. working baby boomers. I've met some incredibly lazy baby boomers. I've met some amazing Gen Xers. I've met some lazy Gen Xers. But you know what? They can be influenced and their actions can change if led the right way. And if not, they're illustrating what seat they want to have on the bus. And that seat is the bus stop outside of the bus. Have you ever heard of the analogy, being, have it be on the right seat on the bus.

Erin: 46:59

Yes.

Chris: 47:00

Okay. So Jim Collins, just for the rest of your audience, in case they haven't heard it. Jim Collins, the renowned author from a, from a business book standpoint has written a couple of incredible books, but one of the most impactful ones of the late 20th century, beginning of the 21st century is the book Good to Great. And in that book, he talks about you have to have the right people on the bus, but then he takes it one step further. You have to have the right people on the bus, but you got to make sure they're in the right seat.

Erin: 47:27

Right. Yeah.

Chris: 47:29

And to our discussion here, we've talked about who's driving that bus. That's the leader who's driving. That bus has an impact on where the people behind them are sitting. And they're impacted by how they act and they are impacting them by what they recommend being done. Now, I'm not going back to the great school days of the bus driver, yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs, sit down or you won't be on my bus tomorrow. Stop throwing that Sally. I'm not talking those days because we aren't dealing with kids. We're dealing with adults But we could lead them to change their actions We can take someone who might sit in the back of the bus because they want to be Disruptive to within a couple of months wanting to sit at the front of the bus and help everybody out By how we lead them. We have true, true impact on them. But just to close that analogy out, if you've tried to impact them, you've tried to lead, and you've tried to get that person who might have been lazy, and you've tried to work with them, and they just won't make those change with all the coaching and guidance you try to give them, there's still a seat for them. It's just at the bus stop. Not on your bus anymore.

Erin: 48:45

Like you said, everybody has a seat, but there's a button for every seat.

Chris: 48:50

There's a butt for every seat and great organizations have lots of options. I'll stay away from the butt analogy there. Okay. But they have a lot of options, but organizations that are challenged. They still have options too, because people want to have the opportunity to impact. People want to have the opportunity to change. The messaging just has to be shifted a little bit. You can't blow smoke up them and just say, we're the greatest organization out there. We have incredible communities. If that's not the case in that market, be honest with them. Hey, we've had some challenges. Those challenges have been directly impacted by the leaders that we've had in this organization. We are working to make that change. And that's starting with us finding the right blank. Is that you that is completely different than me trying to blow smoke and telling me telling you that we're a great organization and you should be honored and privileged to come to work for us if I were to be humble and if I were to be vulnerable and say, we've had challenges and we're needing to change the team because of the challenges. I'm showing a little vulnerability and what you would like to work for someone who shows a little bit of vulnerability versus. Oh, it's not my fault. I don't know anything about that. I'm gonna stick my head in the sand a little more. So there are, there is the right person for every role. There's the right seat for every butt, to bring it back to that fun analogy.

Erin: 50:12

Yeah. I still am energetic. Like, you still bring the energy, like, You should get on stages and speak to people. You know what I mean? Like,

Chris: 50:24

I appreciate that. And I, I have been blessed to have those opportunities, but I, and I'm sure more opportunities like that will come, but I'm just as energized by you and I having a one on one conversation like this because of the medium we're doing it. Yeah, you and I don't know the impact we're going to have from this conversation. And the greatest story I can tell you about that of the impact of these types of conversations in in a podcast form. I don't want to call it an interview in a conversation form is we don't know who's going to listen and the impact is going to have. I went to a conference that, that we were, I believe, at the same one together. And, I helped put on a 5k fun run for the group. And I went for a pre run to map out the course, to make sure that I had the right turns, I wasn't sending people in the wrong direction, or, or making sure that they can get back to where we started. And somebody came on that pre run with me. And in that run, The person literally cited back to me some of the things I had said in a podcast interview and the, the heart swelling, the jaw drop that I had at that moment is we don't have a clue who's going to listen to this, whether it's one person And it's my wife who happens to be the only listener to this and trust me that's not happening. Okay She hears me talk enough We don't know the one person who might listen to this conversation and they hear one thing that I said Or one thing that you said that changes their course So On that little pre 5k run and that individual reciting back to me some of the things that I said, and they shared the impact that it had on them and how they shifted their mindset and their actions that will stick with me forever. And that's why I love sure. It's cool being on stage. I think the largest one I've been on had 10, 000 people on the in the audience, but I love these one on one conversations. Just as much because the impact can be just as exponential.

Erin: 52:33

Yeah, I mean, like, I feel just I feel joy and possibility and I don't know. I hope our listeners feel the same way because we've given them a lot to think about a lot of tactical information to try and to understand that. You are in control. You can create your story. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. When you own your story, you can create your future. And you've shown us that. and that's really important. So thank you. Thank you so much. Well, thank you.

Chris: 53:07

I want to acknowledge you for a second, Aaron, because this is not easy. I know the effort you have to put in to put together a podcast like this, to take the time and energy, A, to find people who are willing to talk, B, to put it in a professional format and C, put it out there. You are putting yourself on the line every time you put it in a podcast out there and for you to have the stick to it ness to keep on going. 94 percent of the podcasts that have been created are done within five episodes. So the fact that you are going on a couple of years now, and I've been watching all along, even some of those crazy ones with your Dion glasses. So thank you for sticking with this because I know the effort and energy and time you have to put into this. And you are not doing this for the volumes of cash that are sitting behind you because you've put this together. Right. You're doing it. Yes. It's because of your willingness and wanting to learn and wanting to give back. So thank you very much for what you've done.

Erin: 54:12

Thank you. Thank you for acknowledging that. It does take work. I do love it. And it's for what you say. It's the impact. It's it's the impact it's for my learning. and it's also for other people like me who, who don't get the opportunity to meet Chris. But can now hear how he impacts people, which is amazing.

Chris: 54:34

So I appreciate that.

Erin: 54:36

Thank you. I appreciate it. And as always to my listeners, aspire for more for you. Thank you for joining us today.