Empathy, Excellence and Effective Leadership in Senior Living with Joseph Cope

Connect with me on LinkedIn


Follow me on Facebook where I educate, equip and empower family members how to proactively care for their elderly loved ones.

Follow me on Instagram where I educate, equip and empower family members how to proactively care for their elderly loved ones.

Join my email list where I will lift you up, and send tactile advice weekly to support you to grow your experience in your senior living career.

Transcript

Erin: 0:35

Welcome back to an episode that I am so excited to deliver today because I have the empathy guy with me. It's so funny. I love nicknames and I. His name. His actual name is Joseph Cope, but he is the empathy guy. He's a motivational keynote speaker, an award-winning educator, corporate empathy workshop facilitator, and an executive and personal empathy coach. Man. Welcome, Joseph. How are you? Did it today.

Joseph: 1:03

Aaron, it is an absolute pleasure to be here. I cannot wait for a conversation.

Erin: 1:09

Yes, I, firmly believe in the correlation between education and senior living. And your content on LinkedIn has just been so enlightening for me. Different content pieces that you've written about students that you've had, that really resonate with me. And knowing about compassion fatigue that runs rampant inside education as well as senior living. My sister's a teacher, so I hear it all the time. And knowing how powerful the relationship my kids' school is for me as a parent and how powerful the relationships, I tried really hard to cultivate with my, residents and their families. It's just a natural conversation to have, and especially since you focus on empathy. And I love how you talk about empathy as a skill. This is a conversation that we're going into today. Are you ready?

Joseph: 2:04

Oh, the correlations are popping right now. I mean, even, I know you and I have had multiple conversations already, but already my mind is going in all sorts of different directions, so I can't wait to see where this goes.

Erin: 2:17

Yes. So you, from what I understand, you worked in the school and it was a tough middle school. Middle school folks. Middle school. We all, and my son is in middle school, actually went on a field trip, my first middle school field trip, and I was like, whoa, whoa. So tell us about the middle school experience, in a tough school and what that taught you. Bring up, you know, the specific stories about the kids and, and where you're, I guess where you're, where you're at now, which is really exciting, being able to use your experience and, and teach people. It is amazing to me.

Joseph: 2:59

Well, part of the story of why I even got into education, Erin, is because I grew up with empathy as a survival skill in my house.

Erin: 3:09

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 3:10

the home that I grew up in was loving, full of grace in many places except for a few. And in some of those places I had to learn how to put others before me. And because I had to learn how to put others before me as a means of survival, it became the way that I lived my life. And so when I got to the point in my life where I had to choose what feels fulfilling as a 18-year-old, right? Mm-hmm. As an 18-year-old, we have to be, we're told which way, what, where is, what is your passion in life?

Erin: 3:47

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 3:48

I thought to myself, I'm, I'm not gonna be a professional athlete, so what else can I do? And I went into, into university, into college knowing that I wanted to be an educator and I, I knew that I primarily wanted to be an elementary educator because I was looking for people who I could impact. With as little resistance as possible. So I, I started teaching in elementary school. Well, little did I know. My very first week teaching fourth grade, I taught at a Title one school and a Title one school is a school that has, that has, over 50%, free and reduced lunches. And I started the school year in January. I. And I asked a student in my class, a young man to do something, and underneath his breath he says, F you. And for the sake of our audience, I won't say it, but he said it out loud enough for me to hear under his breath. And this is the first week that I'm here and I'm thinking to myself, what have I landed in? And this was in fourth grade. Fourth grade. Great. This isn't even before, this is before middle school, Erin, like this is fourth grade. And now all of a sudden I have this realization there is something in me that is not ready for this, right? So I had to dig deep, I had to figure out how to connect with kids. And there were days, there were days and days and days where I would go home thinking I'm not enough'cause these kids don't love me. I know what I would interpret as these kids don't love me. Was when they would roll their eyes or when they would turn their backs or when they would give me attitude. Or you start to move to middle school, right? And then it becomes even more in your face. Things like, you know, kids just completely ignore you. I. Right. Or you create this amazing lesson plan and kids look at you and they're like, this is stupid. And all of those things get taken so personally and the empathic nature of me started to just feel like the weight of the world was on my shoulders. And eventually it got to a point where I was at a middle school now in a different state. I was in a middle school. We were on what's called the improvement required list, and we were on it for years beyond what you're supposed to be on it. So that means the state was looking at us, they were bringing in all sorts of state mandated collaborators. They were bringing in facilitators, they were bringing in all the people who could bring the help. And it felt like one thing on top of another, mandate after mandate, after requirement after requirement, and eventually, not only is my empathic heart hurting because I'm carrying the weight of all of these kids' emotions in my heart. Now, on top of that, I've got requirements and mandates and paperwork and boxes to check, and it got to be. So much. I mean, when you talk about compassion fatigue for an empath, it happens really quick and it happens hard, but we don't know what else to do. Mm-hmm. And so in 2019, a man who is now my mentor. Came to my school and gave the best professional development I have ever experienced. And in that professional development, he opened my eyes to see that when you walk into a conversation, it's less about your heart and more about your skill. Your heart has to play a part because you're human, but the skill that you bring into a conversation. That is where you can protect your heart, and that was the genesis of the empathy guy. When you talk about coming into any challenging conversation, especially as a leader in a moment, your heart can only take so much. And when your heart feels like it's getting stomped on when your heart feels like it can't take anymore. If we don't have a skill to fall back on, then all we're left with is reactions from the heart, rather respon, rather than responses from a place of skill. And I think that's what we're gonna get into today, Aaron, is what can we do to move away from leaving my bleeding heart on the table? And what can I do so that I can move towards creating space for another individual so that they can choose change for themself, that skill. And that's the empathy that we're talking about.

Erin: 8:48

Well, first of all, you just described pretty much all of us inside senior living because I mean. I speak for myself. We've had keys thrown at people. We've been called lots of names. You know, we, we try to implement change and nobody wants it. They dare you to say something to'em. They turn around and walk out. They quit right there. I've had one person that I loved dearly, dearly, and. Promoted from within, gave her an opportunity and, and really poured a lot into her, and things got so bad because she didn't have the skill. She just quit in the middle of a meeting and walked out.

Joseph: 9:31

Okay. Yeah.

Erin: 9:33

Anyways, so it was a group meeting. It wasn't even like a one-on-one, you know. so yes, yes, yes, yes. Let's talk about empathy as a skill, which I think is really, really important because there is a lot of compassion fatigue. I know that I suffered through it. I, I think that, I am a natural empath. I, again, grew up like you did, and I love how you said it because sometimes I kind of like go into the story, but you're like, I had a very loving and graceful family, but there were things that I had to, I had to change or I had to think differently or whatever. And, and that is a huge blessing, but it also helps us if we're not careful. It's like a. Radar that we find that same place because that's what we're used to. That kind of chaos is our home. And so that's where we find a lot of teachers and a lot of people inside senior living who are looking for those hits of being someone's hero, of, of, of constantly giving because that's what we're used to. But we run into lack of skill. I'm gonna bring my whole heart into this and. But I don't know how to protect it. I don't know how to put boundaries around it, because boundaries seem really harsh and I don't know how to love people enough to get them to change.

Joseph: 10:59

Mm-hmm.

Erin: 11:00

Because guess what I figured out? Control is a lie.

Joseph: 11:03

Mm. Preach. Three.

Erin: 11:06

It's a lie, folks. It's a lie. All right, so teach us how to operationalize our values, right through skill. Mm-hmm. So give us. Give us an example of how you, you know, you did that or are doing that for yourself.

Joseph: 11:23

Yes. Well, okay. But once, when we think about the process of what we're talking about, about making it, okay. Yes. I, what I want leaders out there to realize is that empathy isn't, it's not just a feeling. And it's not just me throwing good feelings against the wall and hoping something sticks

Erin: 11:43

right. It's not.

Joseph: 11:44

That is sympathy.

Erin: 11:47

Yeah.

Joseph: 11:48

And there is a big difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy feeds on emotions. Sympathy comes about and is stirred up by emotion, and it's you feeling bad for someone and because you feel bad for someone, you attempt to give them something or do something for them. Whether that's actions or words. Or even something nice to say, but that something nice to say doesn't create space for them to change. It actually activates victimhood, or it actually activates something within them that creates a barrier between them and change that sympathy.

Erin: 12:33

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 12:33

So the first thing for us to recognize when we're activating empathy as a skill is, am I in a place. To be able to create space for you. Mm-hmm.

Erin: 12:45

Because

Joseph: 12:46

if I'm not in a space to create space for you, it's gonna come across as sympathy.

Erin: 12:52

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 12:53

So,

Erin: 12:53

or, or nothing.

Joseph: 12:55

Or nothing.

Erin: 12:55

Suck it up and get over it.

Joseph: 12:57

Oh yeah, because, okay, Aaron, you make such a good point because when sympathy runs out, then you have to turn to tough love. Yes. And tough love and sympathy both prevent the brain from going into the place of change.

Erin: 13:13

Yes, it's so true.

Joseph: 13:14

It's very true.'cause you said it, Erin, control is a myth. Yeah, but you know what? So is coercion by passive aggression. That's a myth too. Are there any parents out there who we'd like to say that to? Right? Like it feels like, it feels like, but it's, there's got to be something in the middle. Yes. Because you and I have both experienced leaders in our lives who created space for us, and they may have not even known that they were doing it.

Erin: 13:44

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 13:45

Like, let me tell you about, let me tell you about one of the best principles that I ever worked for.

Erin: 13:51

Yes.

Joseph: 13:51

He didn't even know that he was doing this. But I'm clearly an outside the box thinker, like I am not a box checker. I mean, I know Aaron, there's a piece of you that's a perfectionist that loves checking off boxes, but I will tell you, if I don't make the boxes, I will not check them off. I have a really hard time following rules, and so one of the hardest parts for me as a teacher was writing lesson plans and then turning them in.

Erin: 14:16

I know I struggle with that too.

Joseph: 14:18

Because I knew what was gonna happen. I just didn't have want to have to explain it to you. And so, when I got hired at a middle, at the middle school, they were so focused on growth with the kids that at certain point they said, listen, just make sure that you turn something in. but I, I didn't have great lesson plans to turn in. And so eventually, I just kind of like gave the box checking thing, but nothing really made sense. So my assistant principal at the time, he walked into my room, he did a number of observations, and then he pulls me aside after being in my room for about three months and he says, Joseph, I see the incredible lessons and learning that's taking place. Your kids are engaged. I mean, you could tell your kids that the sky is green and they would believe you. I just need to know what I'm walking into. When I come into your class, because I want to know ahead where I can give you feedback. So whatever your lesson plans look like, I don't care if there's stream of consciousness, if they're bullet points. Just make sure that I know where you are in the lesson plan and what standard you're trying to hit that day because, and this was the kicker, he said, I can't give you feedback on nothing.

Erin: 15:38

Hmm.

Joseph: 15:39

And that was where there was a little click in me, which was, there has to be a framework for growth to take place. The challenge is, is the framework something that is coerced into you, or is the framework something that you believe in?

Erin: 15:58

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 15:58

And this is, I'm getting all of this, Aaron, as I'm getting to this point, is I have a framework. That I coach and that I speak about, and that I bring up in all of my workshops about how to turn empathy into a skill. And so some of your listeners are gonna be like, wow, that's a great framework. And others of your listeners are gonna be like, well, that doesn't make sense. And if it doesn't make sense, don't worry about it, because every framework comes from a great idea in somebody's mind, and the spirit behind it is what matters. Yes. The moment that you can make that framework relative to you and your life and your experience, you become curious and curiosity is the key to growth.

Erin: 16:43

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 16:44

So here's the framework. Let me share the framework with you. It is what I like to call the cargo model. And the reason that I call it the cargo model was one is that each of the letters stand for something. Cargo is an opposition to your baggage. No leader wants to be thought of as the leader that's bringing their baggage into any conversation, right? You've, you, you remember the conversations where you're looking at your leader and they're telling you something in, in your head. You're like, what is wrong with you? Right? Like, or somebody must have had a bad morning this morning and I don't know what it is, but you're taking it out on me, right? Like, we gotta figure out a way. That we can leave the baggage at the door. now, before I tell you the framework, Aaron, you're looking at me. I, I see your wheels turning. Is there anything that you're processing before I get into the framework?

Erin: 17:36

No. I mean, I like it. I, I think I, I think frameworks are important. I was like, you two, like, I mean, I know what's gonna happen. Why do I need to write it down? Like I don't have time to write this down. Like there were so many. So, yes, we're very much on the same page there. And I never even knew what a framework was until really, like the last three years. Like I never, and so frameworks are very, very important. So I'm excited to, to listen to this.

Joseph: 18:01

I love it. And I, I'm with you, a framework. A framework is just a place for you to start. That's all it is. That's all it is. so here's the framework. The cargo framework stands for the, the letters stand for this. The C stands for connection. The A stands for accountability. Mm-hmm. The R stands for resistance. The G stands for gain, and the O stands for Outlook. So here's where they are. Connection. Just connect with somebody in the most human way that you can, if you are the leader, your responsibility because of your position. Is not to be somebody who eggs on their emotion. Really? When people are, when adults are emotionally dysregulated, what do they start acting like?

Erin: 18:52

Kids.

Joseph: 18:53

Kids and you, or the

Erin: 18:55

emotions of kids. The unregulated emotions of kids. I do it.

Joseph: 19:00

We all do it. I mean, listen, have you ever been in an airport, Erin, and your kids are actually acting really well. Okay. And there's another parent though, whose kids are not acting well and that parent starts to yell at their kid or say stomach and they start to put it down. And does that kid act better? Usually not. Right. And you, in your head, are you thinking to yourself, to the, out of that other parent?'cause it never happens to you and I, but to that other parent, we're thinking, wouldn't you, shouldn't you just stop acting like that child? I mean, realistically, you and I have had moments like that where people are looking at us the exact same way. But the point is this is when we are in our best self, we are. We would never treat our children like that. It's just when we start acting like children is, when we start treating our children like that, one of the reasons is because those mirroring neurons in the brain mirror the more powerful emotion, unless there's awareness and skill. So in a place where an adult is emotionally dysregulated, one of the first things that leaders can think to themself is this adult is acting like a child. What can I do to connect with them as a human to bring them back to their adult self? And oftentimes that is your body language. It's lowering your voice. It's how you position yourself. Sometimes it's creating space and time and saying, can we come back to this later? I. But connection is key. And if I just stopped at connection, I would look at you and say, that's all you had to do. You'd think my framework was soft, because accountability has to happen, right? Mm-hmm. The A is for accountability. What is the A? Why? What are we accountable to? And this is where we're gonna start going deep. Accountability actually has nothing to do with the words on the wall, your mission statement or your vision statement, it has nothing to do with your code of ethics. When we're creating space for others, accountability has everything to do with holding ourselves accountable to our own personal values.

Erin: 21:16

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 21:17

I have four personal values, Aaron. They are courage, compassion. Curiosity and healthy and body and mind. And when I walk into challenging moments, those are the four words that are ringing through my ears. Are you courageous enough to set boundaries right now for yourself? Are you willing to have the compassion to recognize that this person is a child? And you would never yell at a child? Are you curious enough to ask, what more could this be and what's behind this, and let's do our best to keep a healthy mind in place. I'm thinking those things because those are my values walking into it, and accountability. When you can be accountable to your own values. Then your personal integrity is intact, and the result of that is whatever's on the wall, your code of ethics, your mission statement, that gets lived out because it's coming from a personal place.

Erin: 22:18

Mm-hmm. That's good.

Joseph: 22:20

I see you processing.

Erin: 22:21

Yeah. A lot of people don't have like, that's a powerful way. To regulate yourself whenever you were confronted with a very highly emotional response, which is something inside of a community we are around all the time. Like, and I'm sure in a classroom of middle schoolers, you that it's that way too. But like I would often when I felt myself getting like, you know, where it was coming up, like it was coming up, I would be like. I would say to myself, how do you want to feel calm, cool, and collected? You know, you want to like, one of mine is kindness, like it is just to be kind. and I can lose kindness really quick when I feel disrespected or when that open wound, when they pour salt in that open wound. You know, like when, when it triggered the everything that I have done for you and this is how you wanna treat me, like when that trigger pulls mm-hmm. All bets are off, folks, you better sit down when I listen, you're talking to me. You know what I mean? It's like once we go past that point. You know, but it is, I, I kind of have, I don't have it as well as you, but I know that kindness, respect, and curiosity is like, why are you acting this way? Like, what happened? You know? Mm-hmm. I understand all that a little bit more, whereas I didn't, when I was inside of a community, the skill wasn't there, that the skill is now here, and I realized. It's the trigger, like I was understanding triggers when I was still in the community and I could feel it when mine was getting squeezed, and I would have to say to myself, this pain that you're feeling is not caused by them. They didn't do this. Calm yourself down. But then sometimes, you know, it's the halt, right? If I was too hungry or if I was too tired. Mm-hmm. I'm coming at you and you don't want this version of me.

Joseph: 24:21

Okay. No. Which is a great transition into the R, which is resistance.

Erin: 24:28

Yes.

Joseph: 24:29

And the resistance is nuanced. Okay. Because you just said it. When you pour salt into my open wound. Yeah. And you don't respect my values that I'm bringing to you. And that little kid in you says, look at me trying to be my best and this is what you're giving me.

Erin: 24:50

Yes.

Joseph: 24:51

You know what that is? That right there is that tension band pulling tighter and tighter. And the first question we have to ask when it comes to resistance is, what is the resistance in me? Mm-hmm. Yeah, because they are already in a place of survival, so they're going to be giving resistance.

Erin: 25:15

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 25:15

I need to ask myself, what is the resistance in me? Do you know what the most effective question I have found to ask that the most effective question I have found is, how old do I feel right now?

Erin: 25:30

Hmm. That is effective.

Joseph: 25:32

How old do I feel right now? Yeah, because if that tension is there, and you said it, Erin, the salt is important to the wound. At what age was that wound present? And that is usually the age that you feel

Erin: 25:49

Yeah.

Joseph: 25:50

And so when you can begin to have compassion for yourself at that age, what happens is you start to step into the resistance rather than away from it. And when you step into the resistance, it's a lot easier to create a space of compassion for that other person who is acting like a child, because two children who are going at it are not gonna give in. Yeah. What you have to have is somebody who is their, in their functional adult to be able to create space, get curious, and lean in so that the tension can be dropped on both sides. That resistance piece to me is one of the most powerful parts that has come about in the work that I've done in empathy, because to me, that resistance piece there, it can either be a middle finger. Or it can be the mountaintop, the peak. I'm telling you, my brain thinks in metaphors, but it can be the point where you see yourself, the clearance, wouldn't you agree?

Erin: 27:02

No, I agree. Yes, a hundred percent.

Joseph: 27:04

But that middle finger turns around so quickly, right? Like it turns into the how the f can you think that way? Why can't you see the fact that I'm trying to help you out? Look at me. And then that little 5-year-old, 8-year-old, 12-year-old, 15-year-old victim comes out. Mm-hmm. And that's not doing anybody any help?

Erin: 27:24

No. You know, I, I'm proud of pretty much how I handled most things inside of the community, but there is. One story where I literally, I mean, there have been times where I have matched people's energy and was able to recompose myself and finish it in a very professional way. but there was one time where, you know, I called my boss and said, I think I need to quit because. I just, had it out, like we moved from inside to outside and I just treated somebody who I've worked with for a very long time as if she was treating me and we were just pointing fingers and talking about how we never do anything for each other. And it was, it was something I'm really ashamed of, but I look back now and I'm like, it's. I was just too tired. I was tired and I was forcing something and I now know that I pulled a lever, a trigger for her, and I knew nothing like she was assuming so much, and I absolutely knew nothing about what she was talking about. Mm-hmm. Nothing. And so then I just spent all this time doing this for her. For them. They've been talking about this one topic forever, and I'm just having them look at the schedule. We're getting every other weekend off. Y'all are doing great. Look at me. I'm the hero. I have just spent ungodly amounts of time on this, and I just want you to look at it. Mm-hmm. Nothing's final. This is 45 days away, but I need your approval and. She did not approve. Mm. Erin'cause because of a birthday party that she never put in a request off for because her weekend rotation was messed up. Mm-hmm. And I had no way of doing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, how dare I ask her to work on her son's birthday? Mm. I'm not. I didn't, and I never would. But boy, we blew up and I'm like, can, can 10 years? Can 10 years not not mean anything to you? You know what I mean? Like, I've never asked anybody to work on their child's birthday. Why would I ever do that? You know what I mean? So it was just like so irrational.

Joseph: 29:49

That's the word. Irrational. Yes. Yes. Children. Children are irrational.

Erin: 29:55

Yeah.

Joseph: 29:57

Right. Like. There is, I just told you one great hack that I use to try to help myself, which is how old do I feel? Mm-hmm. Another one that is a little bit more adult is, what am I missing?

Erin: 30:13

Yeah. Clearly. What am I missing? And that's a very valuable question to ask when somebody is like blowing up on your face. Mm-hmm. And you were taken so off guard. Mm-hmm. The question to ask is, what am I missing? Mm-hmm. And that would've been a very powerful question in the moment,

Joseph: 30:32

right? Yes. Because if you were the leader in that space, can you imagine the dissipation of tension if in just for a moment of awareness you had stepped back and said, hold on. I feel like I'm missing something.

Erin: 30:50

Yes.

Joseph: 30:50

Am I, am I missing something here because I feel like we're talking or we're talking about the same topic, but we're in different chapters of the book?

Erin: 31:02

Yes. That would've been the most powerful question to ask. Had I been in, had I had the skill. Right. Just the awareness. Yeah. And, and probably another day, another time I would have been, I would have been able to do that, but at that moment I was flying so high. Mm-hmm. So tired. Mm-hmm. So excited that to her such disrespect, irrational way that she spoke to me, it just, I mean, like. Hmm. All sanity left. All sanity left.

Joseph: 31:42

You just touched on a word that I wanna spend a minute on.

Erin: 31:45

Yes.

Joseph: 31:46

You said disrespect.

Erin: 31:49

Yes.

Joseph: 31:50

Is disrespect, but let's flip it. Is respect given or perceived?

Erin: 31:58

Oh. Well, the most common thing is earned. Right.

Joseph: 32:03

I purposely didn't use that.

Erin: 32:05

I know, I know, I know. I like that. I, I do think it's perceived, you know, you're right because, and how people, she didn't disrespect me. In fact, she really, really valued me. I know that and I valued her. but in that moment it was,

Joseph: 32:26

we could say this, Erin, you felt disrespected.

Erin: 32:30

Yes, I felt disrespected.

Joseph: 32:32

And your feelings come from your perception? Mm-hmm. How do you think she felt?

Erin: 32:39

Oh, she felt completely disrespected.

Joseph: 32:42

So now we've got two people feeling disrespected. Wait, that really sounds like two toddlers in a sandbox.

Erin: 32:51

Oh, and we were. Yes.

Joseph: 32:53

You know what it else, it sounds like, it sounds like two middle school girls standing at each other, standing up in the cafeteria, jawing at each other across the room like

Erin: 33:02

we were Yeah.

Joseph: 33:03

No, and, and it's where, and, and this whole point is as a leader to be able to, one, have the awareness that there is resistance. And number two, to be able to ask myself where the resistance comes from. You can see how powerful it's,

Erin: 33:21

yeah. It was that moment that I realized, and I knew this, but it was, I mean, like I said, I will know how I want to feel at all times, and I will never allow myself to be that, out of control at work again, ever. And I have been through a lot of perceived disrespect, right? Mm-hmm. Like, but this one took a whole nother level. And it's funny because I dissect it back and she never reported me. Mm. She very easily could have called corporate. I mean, I did. I immediately called and told on myself, you know what I mean? Because, but she didn't, I treated her the same after that. But she was always very, our, our relationship changed and I think some of it was a mixture of lots of things, but her respect for me. She didn't make the phone call. Mm. She could have very easily made the phone call. Somebody could have made the phone call. Yeah. You know, no one did.

Joseph: 34:26

Oh, boy. You see what you're say, what you're sharing right now. Is one of the keys to growth, which is awareness. I mean, clearly this is a memory that sticks in your mind as a point where you went, I don't want to be like that, so what can I do to change?

Erin: 34:45

Yeah. And when

Joseph: 34:46

we hit those moments in our life, that's where frameworks actually help.

Erin: 34:52

Yes, absolutely.

Joseph: 34:53

Because I'm asking myself, what do I need to do? And a framework. When you are feeling like you're in that space, a framework is helpful and part of the framework that I'm sharing with you, the first three, think about who they have to do with.

Erin: 35:08

Mm-hmm. Myself, our ourselves. Yeah.

Joseph: 35:11

Right. What can I do? The G though is where we begin to create space for somebody else. Because when you are in a place where you feel like, okay. I'm stepping out of that child side of me. I'm giving my functional adult a chance to shine. Now is where the leader steps in and the G stands for gain, which is what is the gain to the recipient. Mm-hmm. Or change to occur. When I say change, I just mean like fractional shift, right? I'm not right, because in my mind, in in my mind, as a leader, I have to be able to, at a certain point, empathy is all about putting yourself in somebody else else's shoes and being able to create the space for them to choose change. For themself.

Erin: 36:05

For themself.

Joseph: 36:06

That's all we can do. But until we've done the work on ourself, we can't step into somebody else's shoes with boundaries.

Erin: 36:14

Correct.

Joseph: 36:15

I can't feel these feelings for you, but I will feel them alongside you, and I have to create that environment within myself to be able to see the gain to somebody else, and oftentimes the gain to somebody else. Is being seen, heard, or valued.

Erin: 36:34

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 36:34

To have their side of the story understood. To be asked the question of, what am I missing? Mm-hmm. Sometimes there's something beyond the scene of the scope of understanding that even the person doesn't know, but just the space that you've created gives them a chance to ask the question. What else could this be?

Erin: 36:57

Yeah.

Joseph: 36:58

The gain to them starts with the gain to you, but you've done that with the connection, holding yourself accountable and identifying the resistance.

Erin: 37:08

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. I, I, as a giver, like I gave so much of myself, but at some point I realized like, you're not going to get that back. You give because you wanna give. And to expect other people to give. Like you give, only set your, I mean, that's resentment. I lived in resentment for a very long time and I realized people cannot be what they are not. Mm-hmm. And like that's a great gift to give yourselves. I'm going to continue to do this for you because I love you because this is what I want and I want you to eventually see the pattern and do that for yourself. But you learn constantly that they're always gonna revert back to what they're most comfortable with. I mean, the same for me, chaos. It was a home for me. And when I heard, somebody on a podcast say that, I was like, oh my God, I think chaos is a home for me too. Yeah. That's a problem. I don't wanna be chaotic anymore inside. Yeah. You know, and I think these opportunities help. Learn like I learned from that experience. Like no more, no more the expectation of, of somebody, I guess giving back what you are giving, that's only a, that's only the path to resentment. Mm-hmm. When you are a giver, you realize. This is just who I am and I do not expect anything back in return. Just like when I, when somebody tries to give me something to wear, to borrow a Tupperware container, I say to them, I'm not going to give this back to you. So you know, no resentments. I'm not gonna give it back because that is not a strength of mine. Yeah. You know, and so it's just like one of those things like,

Joseph: 38:55

yeah,

Erin: 38:56

I am fully aware. And it's, it's, we as leaders need to understand the bleeding heart leaders. There's a lot of people, again, like we said inside senior living that come to work here because we find it soothing to be someone's hero. Mm-hmm. And you are, I mean. Hmm. 124 people's heroes. 90 people's heroes, 64 people's heroes. It just depends on your community size, plus their families, plus their associates, but just as much as a hero. If you're not careful, you're a martyr because it's the other side, you

Joseph: 39:33

know, the, the, the vulnerable side of us

Erin: 39:38

mm-hmm.

Joseph: 39:39

Feels so much reward when we're the hero.

Erin: 39:43

Oh.

Joseph: 39:44

But it's really easy for us to be the hero when we're working with a population that's even more vulnerable than we are.

Erin: 39:53

Ooh, that is so true.

Joseph: 39:57

Think about how many times you poured into someone. Only to have them look back at you with a look of derision, with a look of, I don't need you. And your superhero brain is saying, yes you do. You need me. But all that time, you see, this is the, this is one of the big differences. I mentioned it earlier, people who are born empaths, and I'll, let me say this. Everybody is born with the capacity to show empathy as a skill, but it's not until usually we have a lot of experiences where our empathic nature gets us in trouble, that we start to either push empathy away because that doesn't work. Or we embrace empathy because it's what makes us feel close to people, but now it's close without boundaries and our empathic nature leads us to be giving sympathy, and we are the ones who burn out eventually.

Erin: 40:58

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 40:59

What those of us who were born empaths and have been raised as impasse and who are in now leadership positions can do, is how can we turn that kryptonite into a consistent superpower? I.

Erin: 41:15

Yeah,

Joseph: 41:15

you have to turn your empathic nature into a skill.

Erin: 41:21

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 41:22

Think about this, when you call nine one one, they don't call first reactors. What do they call

Erin: 41:30

first responders?

Joseph: 41:32

A reactor reacts out of emotion.

Erin: 41:35

So good

Joseph: 41:36

a responder comes from a place of skill. So good. If we are first reactors as empaths, we might spread sympathy like confetti. But don't nobody want your sympathy,

Erin: 41:51

right?

Joseph: 41:51

Actually, I'm about to put out my first merch line and my first T-shirt is gonna be empathy. It matters more.'cause don't, nobody wants your sympathy.

Erin: 42:02

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 42:04

Because us bleeding hearts just put it out there and then we're like, why don't you love me? Mm-hmm. So how can we bring it in? And I think this is, I think this is a great place to close up with the O, which is leaders often are chosen as leaders because they're really good at the job that they did. Not necessarily because they're great people. People, right? Or sometimes we're such great people. People.

Erin: 42:33

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 42:34

That we get put into leadership positions and we say, and, and we say, well, you are able to work with two or three people, or you are able to work with your clients, or you are able to work with your students, or you'll able to work with the community. Now we're gonna put you in a place where you're not just in the community, you're over the adults and the community. Well. As soon as you're in leadership, you start becoming outcome driven because now you've got deadlines. Now you've got paperwork, now you've got payroll. Now you've got communications that have to go out. Now you've got all of these responsibilities that make the outcome What you're driving to the O in the cargo model does not stand for outcome. The O in the cargo model stands for outlook. As in, we have to focus on shifting the outlook in this moment. Just fractionally, can this space that we've created together give you the chance to shift your outlook on this situation? Just fractionally, because I just have to give you a chance to choose change for yourself. Outlook. Not outcome.

Erin: 43:50

Right? Yeah. It's about understanding. Mm-hmm. I mean, we can sum it up, right? Empathy is really about understanding. What did I miss? That real curiosity standpoint, you know, really for understanding other people, but understanding ourselves because like you said, the capacity to show up for somebody else. Is based on the capacity that we have to show up for ourselves, and that's where empaths and most leaders get it wrong. That while we don't wanna put boundaries in place is because it feels harsh, you know? Would you say, would you say that Im most empaths are enablers as well?

Joseph: 44:34

They don't know it.

Erin: 44:36

I know.

Joseph: 44:36

No, and that's the hardest part, right? Like you do not want someone to suffer in the short term. Here's the difference. Here's a, here's a huge help for me, Erin, when it came to whether or not I'm an enabler, there's a difference between hurt and harm.

Erin: 44:56

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's really good. That's a really, really good thing. It

Joseph: 45:01

might hurt in the moment, but will it harm them in the long term if I do too much now? Yeah. We don't, empaths and bleeding heart leaders, we never want to hurt anybody. I mean, everybody's just a precious bunny, but. You have to give the, forgive this over beaten used metaphor you have to give the caterpillar a chance to be in the cocoon.

Erin: 45:31

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 45:31

You and I both grew through the most challenging experiences of our lives. The point is that they were our lives.

Erin: 45:38

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 45:39

Our responsibility as leaders is to create the space for your life to be yours. And for you to choose change for yourself. And sometimes bleeding heart leaders, I shouldn't say sometimes bleeding heart leaders and heart centered leaders. This, one of the, the biggest pieces of awareness that we have to have is we need to save ourselves from ourselves and from our empathic nature. And the moment that we can step into awareness and ask ourselves one of these five questions. What can I do to connect with this person as a human?

Erin: 46:15

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 46:16

Am I holding myself accountable to my personal values right now? What's the resistance that's taking place and what's the gain to that person? And can I just shift the outlook fractionally? I mean, think about how adult that sounds, right. That is your functional adult in action. But I also wanna make this point, I didn't make those as statements. I made them as questions.

Erin: 46:46

Mm-hmm.

Joseph: 46:47

Those questions create the space for yourself to have compassion for yourself. Mm-hmm. You were really close when you said it, but what I like to always say is, our capacity to create space for others is limited only by our capacity to create space for ourself. Mm-hmm. And it starts by asking questions. Empathy is about understanding, but empathy is going to start when you ask the right questions. Yeah.

Erin: 47:17

That's so good. I can never remember the character on enc Cantos name, but you know who it is. What's her name?

Joseph: 47:23

It's the older sister. I can't remember who it is either.

Erin: 47:26

Yes. Okay. But under, under the pressure. Right? I mean, we talked about this and I, I think empathic people centered, purpose driven leaders who want to be the hero. We have the capacity to carry a lot. But just because we can doesn't mean that we should. And when we do, that's where we get to the point where we have that fight in the sandbox, whether we're two, or whether we're in middle school. Mm-hmm. You know, having, wanting to please everybody, wanting to be everything, to everybody wanting the desire for people to see you. And I think another driving thing is, or at least it was for me, almost looking for the wrong people to see you. Mm-hmm. Wanting validation from the wrong people, when really the validation really is that little voice inside of you. Mm-hmm. Like that's who you need the validation from, not somebody else. Mm-hmm. And when you become aware of that, that is when life changes. Mm. You know, you work on that little voice. And that my friends is a lifelong project.

Joseph: 48:42

That is the work.

Erin: 48:44

Yes.

Joseph: 48:46

I mean, you just said it. it it, it took a, it took a midlife experience for me.

Erin: 48:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joseph: 48:57

I won't call it a crisis because to me it was a gift.

Erin: 49:00

Yeah.

Joseph: 49:01

But it took that experience for me to see the cavernous hollowness within me that was trying so desperately to seek fulfillment, to seek purpose, to seek a sense of life from helping others to the detriment of me. Mm-hmm. If you are out there feeling that sense of hollowness, feeling, that sense of, I am doing so much for the world and why isn't it sticking? There's something that you can do, and it starts with asking five questions.

Erin: 49:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So powerful. Clearly you're my brother from another mother, but similar to my mother. Anyways, moving on.

Joseph: 49:54

That might be an off-camera conversation. Might be over a coffee, or something stronger.

Erin: 50:00

That's so funny. That's so funny. Gosh, this was so good. I, I really like. It was so good for me. The way you say it so succinctly and have that framework is really inspiring and motivating. I, I hope that people who listen to this, I mean, I can't, it's, it's work. Practice, any new skill is practice, but that cargo framework is important and they can find out about that. Do you have that on your website? Or They can. You can certainly go him and ask him to speak at your conferences, which we'll try to get him some places because this is, this is the work that we need to hear inside our, inside our profession right now as a whole, so it's nice. You know, whenever the midlife thank you project was in your life, you really get to see how you get to use that for good. And that is powerful. That's powerful. We all have that opportunity. It's the way we look at it. Is it a crisis or is it a is? Thank you. Mm-hmm. And there are, you know, two big points in my life where I felt like they were crisis. Crises, but they're really big thank yous. Mm-hmm. You know, which is fascinating.

Joseph: 51:21

Before I go, I can share with you, which is I, I heard a definition of purpose about a year and a half ago that changed the way that I interact with humanity. Mm-hmm. and this comes from Gab and Brian Boche, who run the Purpose Company, and I'm forever indebted to them. The definition of purpose is the best of what you've been given to give to others.

Erin: 51:48

Mm-hmm. Wisdom from the wounds, right?

Joseph: 51:52

But from, but what are the experiences in life that it's gonna take for the best of who we are to emerge so that others can receive it from us? In a way that feels safe, secure, boundaried, but full of impact. Yeah. And I feel like that midlife experience mm-hmm. You never wish it on somebody, but you're so full of gratitude for the experiences that you're given. Because the best of who you are just has the potential to emerge. Yeah. And if I can give that message to 1, 2, 5 people who end up listening to this podcast, it's been fulfilling.

Erin: 52:38

Well, it certainly has. So thank you for giving us an, you know, 45 minutes to an hour of your time today. Great. And if people wanna know more about you, how to work with you, how to get you at conferences, they can go to empathy guide.com.

Joseph: 52:55

That's the best way to get ahold of me. If you want to reach out with me on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn. and love the human connections that we create on LinkedIn. Empathy guide.com is my space. and if you are interested in more on the cargo model. Send me a message on LinkedIn and I will send you a PDF that has a reminder of all of those questions just for you.

Erin: 53:23

Absolutely. Gosh, thank you. All right. So if you listen to this and it was impactful, share this episode with many, many people because I feel like it's the beginning of what I believe could be a very powerful impact on our profession. So, as always, for my listeners, aspire for more for you.