Creating a Culture that Sticks w/Kate Bertam

Most people talk about culture like it’s a project. But as Kate Bertram, former CEO and author of Creating Stickiness, reminds us, culture isn’t the initiative. It’s the result.

In this episode of Aspire For More with Erin, Kate and I dig deep into the truths leaders often overlook:

• Why culture shows up most clearly on a Tuesday afternoon in the middle of stress
• The role of shadow culture—and how unspoken norms can undermine your best intentions
• Why perks, pay bumps, and pizza parties don’t fix toxic leadership
• How to build trust as the new currency of leadership
• The difference between being “nice” and being “kind” when having tough conversations
• Why development planning creates “stickiness” and helps retain top talent

This conversation is a roadmap for senior living and healthcare leaders who want to create workplaces where people stay, thrive, and belong.

💬 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• How to see culture as the result of leadership behaviors, not an HR program
• Why trust is fragile—and how to build it consistently with your team
• What courageous leadership looks like in real time (and why clarity is kindness)
• How to address “shadow culture” before it damages trust and morale
• Practical ways to use development planning as a retention strategy

Connect with Kate Bertram

• LinkedIn: Kate Bertram
  
  
• Book: Creating Stickiness

Listen Now:

If you’re a senior living leader, healthcare professional, or simply someone who cares about building trust-centered workplaces, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

New ED's Playbook to Creating and IMpactful Community Cultrue

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Transcript

Erin: 1:05

Welcome back to another episode. I'm so happy that you're here with us today. I am excited about my guest today'cause she is an author. I can't wait for you to hear about this book. Most people talk about culture like it's a project, but what if it's actually a reflection? A reflection of how we lead, how we listen, and whether people believe they belong even on the hard days, days that we mess up. Days that we make a mistake, days that we feel like we don't wanna come back. Today I am joined by Kate Bertram, former CEO and author of the new book, creating Stickiness, how Stickiness Transforms Your Bottom Line. And she's also a bold voice in the senior living leadership space from her early days as a CNA to leading an entire organization. Kate brings a perspective shaped by experience, courage, and the kind of honesty. That I love and that we need more of in this field. In this episode, we're talking about why culture is the result, not the initiative. Why total rewards often fail to create real engagement and how to lead with trust, accountability, and courage, and high turnover, high emotion industries like ours. So this episode is for you. If you are leading a team, building a company, or just trying to hold it together, stick with us the entire episode and you'll leave with conversations of frameworks, real talk from a CEO, a former CEO, and a reminder that the soft stuff is the hard stuff. Don't let anybody fool you. And it's what matters most. So, Kate, welcome to the episode. I'm so happy that you're here with us. Thank you.

Kate: 2:54

Thank you, Erin. I'm so glad to be here.

Erin: 2:56

Yes, a former CEO and now an author. I love the word stickiness. I think that there is something really, really important about that. with our industry, and we want our people to stick. We want our values to stick. We want our culture to stick. We want all that st we want them to stay. And so I think it's really important that you are writing a book to help us figure out how to be sticky. And culture is a huge piece of that. And I like how you say it's the result. Not the initiative. So tell us what you mean by that.

Kate: 3:32

that's probably, one of the most important points is that culture isn't a poster on a wall. Culture isn't what the organization says it is, and, it's not a marketing campaign. Culture is what it feels like on a Tuesday afternoon. In in a stressful situation, that's culture, how people act, how people respond based on all of the inputs, that have been created. And what I mean by that is. the leadership style of the organizationthe acts of courage or the type of leaders that are in the organization, what they see, walking the walk, not just talking the talk. All of those are what creates a culture. It's not ping pong tables, and it's not free Starbucks. It's, how am I treated? What is the exchange? the return on my investment and what that feels like, and you can't fake it. We all, we all know, we've all been team members at all different levels of the organization, and you can't fake, mission, vision, and values. it's really what the actions is around those things. it's clear, it's a mirror essentially.

Erin: 4:35

Yes. Good culture. And keep the pizza parties and give me a free Starbucks gift card and put the posters on the wall. You know what I mean? Yeah. But you can't have the free pizza, the coffee without. Belonging, you know?

Kate: 4:51

Exactly. because those things become perks. Yeah. And those are great. Like I love free coffee and I, I love pizza. Right? So we all do. So those are great and I appreciate them. Those are perks though to me. Those are, those are not things that will keep me working for a toxic leader, for example. Yes. Those are things that I just. Will consume or mm-hmm.

Erin: 5:13

You know,

Kate: 5:14

okay. So, we really need to think about, culture tools, as, are they perks or are they truly connected back to the person and to ultimately the mission and the values of the organization. The perks should really just, those are just icing on the cake. and thinking of it that way is really important.

Erin: 5:36

So how do we know when culture's working? Like how do we, from a, from an inside community standpoint, you walk into a building and you can feel it. Mm-hmm. Do you feel it, that's, that's why that soft stuff is, is really important, but from a higher level perspective in how you wrote this book. What are some frameworks, some paths, what is your area of focus?

Kate: 6:01

I think when you're thinking about culture in the organization in a sticky organization. You start with really understanding what culture isn't or what are the common pitfalls, because I think it's really important to avoid some of those things before you even create, before you take it to that, level of creating that foundation. So, things like, lip service and saying that, that this is the way we do things and this is how we treat one another, but yet. The actions, don't take that same direction, is something that we need to be keenly aware of in developing, the culture. It's, that pitfall, the daily reality. If it's not aligned to what we're saying, just completely erodes trust and will, will, you'll lose, any momentum you've, gained in the culture. And then the other is really identifying ahead of time. What is observable from a shadow culture? So what I mean by that is thinking about, the unspoken rules, the, the clicks, the networks, the unwritten norms that are already in place and understanding first whether that exists, and thinking about how you're going to counteract to those kind of things when you, when you think about developing. your culture, and then you really need to be assessing the accountability. How accountable, are your leaders to the culture? So if the CEO of an organization says, this is what I'd like, what I'd like to be known for in our culture, these are the things, right? We lay that out. And then, your middle, your middle level leaders are actually counterintuitive or are counteracting those things. the culture becomes the opposite or essentially falls flat. and so the culture can't be static, right? We can't just say this is it now, and it's a one size fits all. so when we think about what we need to do to create a sticky culture in one that everyone wants to be part of, it's really linking your culture to, to purpose. And I say that really genuinely, and not in the overused term. you know, it's a purpose, purpose, purpose, but really understanding that the work everyone does at every level of the organization links back to the purpose for the reason that they're there. And it really reinforces. something that's really, team members really want, and it's to be part of something bigger. especially our younger workers, right? They wanna be part of something and, and feel like they make an impact. Tying back to purpose in all moments, is really important. And again, can't say this enough, it's not what the CEO says, it's what the what, when the, when the rubber hits the road, what we're saying and what we're feeling, in senior living in communities. are our. Executive directors saying, what are our, our managers saying? and then really that we understand that those same leaders I'm talking about, they're what I call like culture carriers. So it's their job to take the initiatives and the ideas that create a good, strong culture that, you know, there's lots of books written on this, but they're the culture carriers. So really making sure that they're well equipped. To be that person that they understand that this is how we address a, a situation. We hold others accountable. Everyone really wants that, whether they say it or not, that we lead, with courage, we make hard decisions and then, that we establish trust over and over. You know, they say that trust in culture, trust is something that. Is like a drop in a bucket. It takes time, it takes constant practice. And then once the bucket's full, you know, we've established that trust, but it, we can lose it as quickly as failing. you know, our team members, by not being honest, not being transparent, not explaining the why tip the bucket and all the water drains out. So it's fragile and those middle leaders need to be the, the culture carriers. The other piece with culture is that team members need to have a voice and need to feel a sense of ownership. Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is, I wanna be heard if I'm a CNA, or in dining services, I want you to ask me what I think. I want you to listen to what I think. I want you to, you know, to know my voice is heard and I want you to follow up and show that you've listened and that you're evaluating. You might not, I might not like the answer I'm getting, but darn it, if my voice is heard, I feel like I'm connected. And so we need to give a, a lot to that, that voice and that ownership.

Erin: 10:46

Yeah, I think that people. When you're turning a culture around, or you're trying to be very intentional with the culture that you're trying to build, whether you're a new leader inside of a new company, whatever your circumstance is. I think there's one word that people get hung up on and it's consistency because it's hard to keep doing the same things when you don't see the benefits of your work, when you don't see the fruits of your labor and growth is very minimal. And I tell people all the time, you have to look for the small changes, micro

Kate: 11:26

mm-hmm.

Erin: 11:27

Micro changes, like the really, really small ones, because otherwise you are going to get discouraged. And that is the number one thing that ke, that keeps leaders from growing, from being consistent is because it's, it's being discouraged, but culture is a long game. It is not a short game. And I think that people need to understand that.

Kate: 11:48

Right. It's the, it's the result. There are, opportunities to create micro moments, that contribute to the culture. They're more important than any million dollar marketing campaign on culture, right? Those micro moments, those moments of saying thank you. Those moments of public and private recognition, right? Sometimes, Your team members don't want you to put their name on a sign. They would just appreciate a verbal, thank you. And those micro moments, in, in the hallways, walking the halls and you know, meeting with someone who's struggling to show that you're committed are worth, that's the culture. Yes. That's the culture you create.

Erin: 12:28

Yes, the power of presence is a big, big deal. So when we talk about consistency and culture and presence and all that, like that is building trust. Building trust is a must. For new leaders. Leaders have been doing this for a long time. because trust is like the oxygen, right? The new currency of leadership. And in the world that we're in today, trust is hard to come by. It is hard to come by. so it sounds like a buzzword. but how, what are some actual systems, that you believe that we can use to build trust inside of our community? Because the people that we have inside of our communities at every layer, some of the layers are harder to, to gain their trust.

Kate: 13:23

Yep. So I think, you nailed it, you know, earlier with consistency. You, you, you have to be consistent in your actions, your words, to create trust so that someone really knows that they can, they can predict what you would say, what you think, what you would do, and really feel some level of autonomy to be able to make decisions on their own. and I think it's just like personal relationships. We need to trust our spouse. We need to trust those people around us, that, that builds the relationship. It's the same, at work and, and even the most trying times trust will be. the, the secret sauce, if you don't have trust in those really stressful times, you're gonna struggle if, if the team doesn't trust you or you don't trust the team. Hemingway says the easiest way to find out whether, you can trust someone. Is to trust them, right? give it a chance. so give them a chance to fail, right? I, I, I think that's, that's more important than it's gonna take longer for you as a leader, for your team to trust you. And we have a group of skeptical team members at times. and I think you, like you said. Everyone has different personal experiences. They come with. Maybe they come from an environment that trust isn't a thing, and so they come to work and, are skeptical of, of leadership. And so by being consistent each and every day with how you, are, you know, walking the walk, talking the talk, making those things consistent, they can see that in you that you're genuine and you're real. and trust is, is. Super, super vulnerable, commodity in that, if you are fake and you are not genuine in, in your level of caring for them, and, and what they're maybe going through or what they need, it's, it's a recipe for disaster If you listen. Take action and action might not always be what, what someone wants, but action is. I listened, I evaluated, I, you know, I looked at it and now I'm circling back. You create a circle of trust that they say they think that themselves, okay, he or she really cares about my feedback and we need that. you can break months of goodwill, by making errors in trust. So that's that. That surface, like I'll say this to you to make you happy. It's that nice versus kind leader I might say to you, whatever. I think you need to sort of temper this, the situation instead of really drilling into, let's take a look. What do you think would make this better? Or how can I help, in being genuine about it? Yeah. So, I think that. When we talk about leadership, I think the important points are, you know, having courage, holding people accountable. But I think it starts with trust. When I've, in my roles, when I've walked into communities, I know there's a level of, oh, she's here. And so everyone's perfectly poised. you know, the, the community, the physical plant is, is shining, and there's all of that. But what I do is come in, as a partner to them and I drill into, not whether there's dust on a picture frame, but how's it going? How, you know, how, how, what's really good about this? Tell me something that's really good here. So starting that, not just tell me what could be better. Tell me what's working really good and people will tell you that. Then what could we do better? what are your challenges? I'm building trust by sitting down and giving someone my time and really my genuine care for what they're doing. after you do that and you repeat it. Many times I'll go back into communities and I'll get high fives walking in the door. So the formality, the hierarchy, nobody who cares don't want that. I would rather have someone that I've spent five minutes with give me a nudge or give me a high five. because it's, to me, it's a mirror of the trust that we've established. that's really important.

Erin: 17:28

I think for new leaders and for, and for leaders rising in the ranks. Trust is, is hard to build, but it doesn't require a lot of action, really. And I say action, I mean, it requires you to listen, like you said, to listen. Mm-hmm. And maybe that requires a lot of energy from you because you wanna go in there and say, does No, no, no. He does. You need to do this. it's, it's the glue. It is it the stickiness of it? And, and it's the same. This is why I am so passionately believe that leadership is sales, and sales is service because it's the same concepts. change happens at the speed of trust from a sales perspective and from a leadership perspective. And so, like you said, how do you build trust? Number one, you just have to trust them. That goes, that may go against every bone in your body, but just allow it, have some contingency plans. But allow, it's like

Kate: 18:27

parenting, right? Yes. Parenting, yes. You have to trust until you can't, and then you put things in place. But really in, from a professional standpoint, when trust is broken, when, when I, as a leader have broken trust with someone that I've given trust to, I look within myself to say, where did I go wrong in this? did I delegate too fast? Were they unequipped to do what I asked them to do? Did I not consider the five other things that are on their plate? Those things. So that first personal reflection, but if I can't find something, which sometimes happens, I'll take it back to that person because I want to re-give trust too. and really re-give trust in a genuine manner. Like, I'm not gonna get in my car, drive away from the community and be skeptical of the conversation. I'm going to re-give trust because again, I need that glue and I need, it takes time. It a ton of energy for sure. I think that leaders are exhausted by the end of the day. There are days you remember this too, right? Like being absolutely exhausted and not by the work we do, but the relationship development. Yes. in my last organization, we went through the most trying time an organization can go through, and I had to deliver some really hard messages and I really struggled with what I had to do in delivering these tough messages, but I had established trust with the organizational leaders, at the community level, at mid-level, and. The executive, team. And so to deliver a message in a room or on a call with people that you know, you've established trust with and about really difficult things is a heck of a lot easier than being in a room of skeptics. But that's because I've taken the time, to develop that. I think that leadership piece is about humility too, right? Like we all come with flaws. We admit them. when a leader to create trust, when a leader will tell you the mistakes they made. Yeah. Or in a meeting say, you know what? I looked at that and I thought I was looking at this and it was a mistake. Boy, do you really give a level of I'm human and you are too. So let's be human together. Because I think trust is, is human in, in our industry, we're that our product is people. So yeah,

Erin: 20:41

we're taking care of some of the most important people.

Kate: 20:44

Oh my gosh.

Erin: 20:44

Of. People's lives, right? Like, you know, like my grandmother lived in my community and, and other people I knew, you know, their parents lived in my community. Like, when you think about that from a trust perspective, like that's, that's a lot. I want them to trust me that I will handle things. when they come up. It's not, trust me that everything is going to be perfect because it's never gonna happen. Yeah. But trust me, that I will handle things swiftly, appropriately, and with, with decisive action. And I think that's all that people want.

Kate: 21:30

Yeah. But as the sandwich generation, right? Our parents are in these communities and, and we're raising children, we really need to know that our parents. If they're in our communities are taken care of. Here's one thing, and I said this a long time ago, and I say this all the time to teams I lead. so, so put yourself in the shoes of an adult daughter, son who's having to shop senior living. And really making sure that the place that they choose doesn't just have, the best amenities, but really cares about my mom or dad understands them and will find ways to engage them and give them meaning and purpose. That's what's really important to me, not the granite countertops. if you have a father like my father who is everything to me, he worked as a machinist for 44 years. He made a great wage. He wage for a machinist. He had a pen, he has a pension, and so he is doing fine. He's 87, but his dollars that he's saved is, has been, is now being used for his care. So in exchange, if my dad is spending down everything he worked for to, for care and services, I can tell you as a leader in senior living, many are like him and I'm gonna commit the same way back. It's so important that our residents have worked hard, to get here and in, in return we're respecting that and, treating them with care and with high quality care and services. I have to trust that my team understands how important that is to me. But I've, I say it over and over like, I am so committed, to our residents and I need you to be there committed with me. and it's those moments and those messaging, those micro messaging. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like I'm I'm repeating myself all the time, but I think that that consistency too is you have to hear things many, many times, but I want them to know that I'm really serious. And as leaders, we want our, our teams to know we're really serious about them and about the product, which is the care and services we deliver. So, yeah.

Erin: 23:31

How many times do we see a Budweiser or a model or a Corona commercial during a football game? I mean like Yep. That they understand it. They understand marketing messaging. And so as leaders, we have to understand that too. we were talking earlier before this, and I think it's important to, to bring it back up about courageous leadership and hard calls, which is something that you've already mentioned. Mm-hmm. And The clearest kind message is something that I feel like leaders inside the industry struggle with. I think that have struggled with that messaging too, nice. Leader versus kind leader, which is something that you so graciously, defined to me. So, let's humanize what it looks like to lead with courage. It's not with a spear and a Warrior Shield, right? Like it really is. Yeah, courageous to have a very clear and kind conversation. I have worked with my own clients about this and what it looks like and the realizations that they're having, like, oh, oh, this is kind because all the mud and the tension that we're swimming in is because we're not clear. So let's define that a little bit for our lead, for our,

Kate: 24:46

I, I think that most important part of courage is that it's putting pe other people first, even when it's difficult. Mm-hmm. and so to be courageous is, like you said, not about being, a warrior and, being armed. That's not what it is. It's really sometimes exiting our comfortable space for the sake of somebody else. it's a virtue in a sense that. You'll give, for others before yourself. And when I talk about nice versus kind leaders, really what I'm boiling it down to is. To be a kind leader, one that gives feedback, one that has difficult conversations, one that cares and takes the extra step for, for another that is on their team or is a peer, courageous. it's, again, we've talked about this already. The, these kind of concepts are a lot of work. but I'll tell you, for some leaders it comes naturally that they're just inclined, to do that. But others. It takes practice and, and takes work. The nice leader doesn't really wanna have to lead with courage. They would rather have things be calm. And while kind leaders will create that, they'll actually take, do the work to get, to get everyone to that point. Mm-hmm. The, the really big question that a courageous leader asks is, what's the human impact in this? in senior living we might see that margins have tightened or that we're over, our administration fees, our labor is over what we anticipated them to be. A courageous leader will sit down. and think about all the alternatives, to solve for that, besides just slashing heads, right? That's EAs that's easy. That's so easy to do. Say, oh, we've gotta. Lower by two ft e. This this month? No. Let's think about the impact of that. If we cut two FTEs, how is that gonna impact the team? How is that gonna impact the residents? What will happen if we do this? And courageous leaders will sort of test those things and make decisions differently. So instead of slashing two FTEs, what if we look at the expenses from another side to see if we can balance some of that stuff? Because humans are the commodity that makes our business, you know what it is? Yeah. And so courageous leaders will always think about the human impact and whether they're able to have some discomfort, to solve for it. So, discomfort might be, I've gotta spend some time evaluating this and. you know, working to solve for it. Besides taking the standard, we're done two FTEs out the door and now I've, I'm back in good graces, but is that really what we need to do or can we think about things differently?

Erin: 27:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's a human component. It's having the hard conversations and taking the time. To dive into it. believe that every problem has a root and we don't wanna take the time to solve the root. We want, we want to take the time to just cut the weeds off, you know, cut the problem off at the top and it'll come back,

Kate: 27:56

but we won't. Right? Yes.

Erin: 27:58

Yes. And, and I feel. In this time, in this industry and where we are with the rise of, we're gonna have so many customers, and now the hard part's going to be finding the people to take care of them.

Kate: 28:14

They're, they don't, they're not alive, right? So what do we do?

Erin: 28:17

Right. We've got, we've got a root problem here. And, and I think that, it's a, it's a perfect time to write a book like this and to, to be talking about topics like this because we want to fill our community with, with leaders, with residents and leaders who understand the humanness. Of this, of this profession, and it can create that culture and then it just feeds itself.

Kate: 28:47

Mm-hmm. I'll give you an example, Erin. In senior living, this specific thing and what you're talking about with root cause, that's really the, that goes back to Lean Six Sigma and Deming and, you know, GE and, and Toyota and the things go back to where the process, could have failed versus the person right. In senior living, you'll see. we'll have a CNA maybe who has abs an absenteeism problem. And we actually, and I've seen this done so many times, it's so frustrating. We'll say like, you know, they have to go, they're, it's not gonna work out. They're not, they're not a good team member. instead of having a conversation of. Hey, what's causing this? You know, you're really important to our team. What's causing this? Only to find out that their child's school starts at eight. Their shift here starts at seven, so they're chronically gonna be late, and we're not addressing that. But they're, you know, when they come to work, they're fantastic solving for the root. there's examples of over documenting because we couldn't trust that it was documented once I saw this. Once they had our, their nurses documenting the chart three times. They knew it wasn't gonna happen, but at least if they got one, which was the re the regulatory requirement, they felt good about it. Like what? So you had teams frustrated with having to over document and instead of addressing the issue. Right. So there's root to all of these things and a courageous leader will say, there's something under the surface. I can't take this for surface value. You know, there, there's something more.

Erin: 30:18

Yeah. the last, main perspective point that we wanna talk about, that you discussed in this book is that ties into all of this would be the total rewards fail that we see inside the senior living profession. And it's an easy. Trap to fall into, right? Mm-hmm. Let me tell you about all the benefits that you're going to get. Mm-hmm. And let's accidentally leave out the human component of why people wanna work anyways beside a paycheck, which is to grow. Right? So talk to us about the myths about retention and The total rewards fail because I had to look that up. What does she mean by that? So.

Kate: 31:08

Find that. I think it's really important to understand, like you had said, that total rewards isn't just your comp. And your benefits, right? Those are standard. Your total rewards is bigger picture and total rewards is a sense of belonging and purpose and development. and really a purpose and engagement and all of that tied together. And there's a way for you to be able to create a total rewards platform that says to the team member. I see you individually and I want to provide you something, that works for you and your needs. I think total rewards programs, are clearly failing, team members when they don't match their workforce needs. So the benefits that we give them don't fit their life. For example, I'm 22 years old. And I want to go on to school and instead of having a robust tuition reimbursement plan, you've provided me with with. A retirement plan that is great, but I'm 22. I'm not even thinking about that. what are my immediate needs now and how do I grow them? That's that, that's that customization that needs to be, designed based on what we've asked them. what those are. And then, total reward plans will fail. If we're missing the unmet needs, and I talk about this a lot, and I'm passionate about really understanding the unmet needs of our team members because we're creating stickiness, right? We want'em to stay. And if we can meet those needs, we've moved mountains for them and we've created that retention that we're looking for. and so some of the unmet needs that a team member may have are things like, obviously competitive compensation, but maybe the financial stability is something that they're striving for and they can't get to. So understanding their, their stresses like their debt, living paycheck to paycheck and offering them some financial, advisement, a session with a financial advisor to get them to that stability, they're craving. Career growth and development. I mean, we could talk about this all day. An unmet need is if I don't see I'm going anywhere, I'm probably not gonna stay. I, I need to, I'm human, I need to grow, I need to develop, and I need to, really find purpose and fulfillment in the work that I do. If, if I'm, if I'm a, an input to your output, then it doesn't really feel good. I don't feel like I'm doing much. The other unmet need in this is m more prevalent during is since COVID is really understanding that people will prioritize themselves and their family as much as their job. So we need to understand what's important to them. Maybe they need flexibility for care of loved ones. You know, our parents need help, our children need help. maybe they have their own health challenges and they need some flexibility around that. Maybe they just want more time to them for themselves to develop themselves with their own personal interests, and they have things they wanna do. And so if we can offer flexibility, we should, and it shouldn't be something we hide away. I think sometimes in senior living we're used to shift work, and so flexibility is like, hmm, not a lot of flexibility. But what if we really created a dynamic scheduling? System, where the team members could create flexibility and not be locked in the way we're traditionally programmed, to do.

Erin: 34:37

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. that would be a total reward. that would be like a very encompassing'cause there are people who want. The structure, the four on two, off the, three, whatever it is, that structure of that. And then there are people who don't. And so there is, you know, with that technology and everything, there is a way to make that work. we just have to, again, this is a look at the root, root problem.

Kate: 35:04

Right. This is an on demand world, right? So how do we, and it's scary because we're like, we gotta have three on, three on first shift and two.

Erin: 35:13

Mm-hmm. I

Kate: 35:14

totally get that. But how do we create a pool to be able to, to have on demand? I'm gonna pick up a shift today. My, college student does that with, she works at Target, right? And she can, if she feels like she has time, she'll pick up five hours. And, and I think, yeah, but that's retail. That's not serving people. But, but the solution to that is let's create a pool of talented people that have this on demand platform to work with. Yeah. And I think that's out there, there, that's, I'm, I'm seeing that now, which is cool. but ultimately there's not enough caregivers. So you can have flexible scheduling, but you gotta have all those other things. That creates them to choose you over staying home that day, you know, and picking up that shift.

Erin: 35:59

Yeah. It's so true. Okay, last question. If you had a magic wand and you could build the most perfect leadership development, senior living, you know, growth plan, what would that look like?

Kate: 36:14

Yeah, so, I wish I had not, I don't wish I had a magic wand. I wish I had. I was working with the company to be able to do this and see, you know, really kind of have this, this tried and tested program. But this is what I think it looks like. It really is that everyone in the organization, top to bottom, you could have 40 communities, senior living communities, or you could have two every, every person that works in the organization within their first 30 days. Has a development planning session. And in that planning development session, which in creating stickiness, I give the whole, the whole template for, because I think it's really important. you are talking about short-term goals, long-term goals, personal, professional, levels, you know, if someone wants to be aspires to be a CEO of a senior living organization today, well there are steps, right? So what is the next step and how do you get there? What are you lacking? These are candid conversation between you and I. I would do this, and then from that point, they have that within that first 30 days, they have their initial development plan and then every quarter to six months. And I know I've talked with other leaders about that. They're like, no way. No way. You can't do that. But actually think about it, that ownership is really on their manager and we're training them how to do that. So every quarter, every six months at least, we're following back up. Did you take that Excel course that I had, offered, I had, told you about did you do this, help them graduate through to different levels so that when there's a different position, they're primed and pumped, they're ready to go. maybe it's some of the social cues they need, professionalism and some of those pieces that they haven't been taught about. having. The ability to provide them with some of those things. That development plan is more important than your annual reviews, which nobody takes seriously. it's so important for someone to know that the organization they work with cares for them, and. I think that, we can talk about development plans all day long. If you're not thinking about it, you're really missing the mark. And senior living is so vul vulnerable to a lack of team members with workforce, that we really have to plan and think for development. It's not extra and it's not some, a department that shouldn't be there and it shouldn't be given to hr. as a, it's an HR function because nobody knows that team member better than their leader. And so that development has to come from leaders and that we have to equip our leaders with the tools to be able to develop.

Erin: 38:52

Yeah, I, I do think that there needs to be a, some type of development plan, some type of growth environment. You know, we as an industry want to pay more money. To people and think that that will be sticky to use your words, but it's not. I have seen it firsthand where we were able to give a bunch of people a huge increase and in six months they wanted more. You know? But really some of these reports that are out there about retention is they want money, but they also want their leaders to be better. Yeah. And I think that you can, that people will stay in a community where they belong. That's sticky that, that they trust as long as the leader is, is growing.'cause when the leader gets better, everyone, everyone benefits from that, you know? Yeah. So it, it becomes like, to me, the growth of the leader is when you grow the leader, the community grows.

Kate: 39:53

I think about total re in total rewards. I think about compensation actually last. Yeah. Here's what I think about it. Compensation. I've never been at top of market in, in compensating. My team never been. Bottom right. I'm always within, so I'm competitive. That's where I stay because if I'm putting all my time into, or if I'm putting a lot of time into the other pieces, comp is just your foundation. It's all the other things that are important and people know that. Yeah.

Erin: 40:26

I I, what I know now is that I would go to a company that is going to value my growth as much as I do. I did not know that five years ago. Mm-hmm. But I know that now. I think

Kate: 40:37

it's changed, right, though. Yeah. Yeah. We weren't talking about this stuff'cause there are plenty of us. And so now it's like, hmm, if I wanna keep Aaron, if I wanna keep Kate, I, I have to do more. And it's not tied to comp. Be competitive, but you don't have to be, right. The top. And you, you referenced it earlier, that pressure. Mm-hmm. I've seen it happen, especially during COVID. We would raise compensation. Some of it needed to be, so that was fine. But there was constant pressure. And like you said, every six months there was comp pressure. and you know what was interesting? It was never mid-level leaders. You know, up it was the frontline. And to me that was a total display of a disconnection between the executive leadership who had all these beliefs and, and, feelings about all the great things the team were doing in the field. But did they know that?

Erin: 41:31

Yeah. So true. All right. Tell us, tell us where they can get the book. It's, it's on Amazon and I'll put a link in the show notes. Uh, but anywhere else they can get the book.

Kate: 41:41

It is on amazon.com. and it's both, paperback and ebook. And right now we're working on the audio. I've been asked Kate, what's going on with that? It's being spoken right now, so we'll get that out there soon, but I so appreciate you having me today.

Erin: 41:56

Yeah, I love this episode. There's so much good stuff in this episode. If you're a leader, a perspective shift, if you're, you know, a regional director or a hire, a perspective shift, to me perspective is such a gift, for those who are in the moment and in the muck sometimes. So get this book. creating stickiness. Sticky is really important. We want people to stay. Thank you so much, Kate, for sharing, your wisdom with us. It is. Very valuable. So to all my listeners, as always, aspire for more for you knowing with the foundation that growth is the goal, influences the outcome, and that you are enough. Have a great day.