How to Communicate So People Want to Change With Tami Calais

What if the reason people resist change… is how we’re communicating with them?

In this episode of Aspire for More with Erin, Erin sits down with Tammy Calais, founder of Aging and Change Coach, to break down one of the most powerful communication tools leaders can use:

Motivational interviewing.

This conversation challenges the way most leaders approach communication, especially in high-pressure environments like senior living.

Instead of telling people what to do, this episode explores how to:

•  ask better questions 
•  create safe spaces 
•  and help people arrive at their own solutions 

Because when people own the solution, they are far more likely to follow through.

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Transcript

Erin 1:05

Welcome to another episode. Folks, so happy to have you here. We are going to be having a fun conversation today, and I'm gonna start it out by talking about honey mustard. Okay. Have you ever had one of those relationships or... I will just tell you, my husband and I were having a conversation, this was years ago, about me trying honey mustard. I do not like mustard. I do not eat mustard on anything, so I was not going to eat honey mustard. And no matter how good he told me honey mustard was or how much he wanted me to eat it, the answer was no, I just wasn't gonna try it. Fast-forward to I'm out on a girl's night, out with a friend, and my friend asks me to try this honey mustard because it was so good. And I tried the honey mustard, and it was good. And I came home, and I told my husband,"Oh, my God, you were so right. Honey mustard is so good." And I have never, ever lived that down. And we're gonna talk about, with my guest today, Tammy, about motivational interviewing and the art of helping people change. And my husband may have a communication problem, but he really had an influential problem with me about honey mustard, and we're gonna talk about how he could have got done better. And so my guest today is Tammy Collet. She is the founder and a- of Aging and Change Coach, an expert in motivational interviewing with over 15 years inside senior living, um, inside the community, uh, and a consultant as well. So Tammy, welcome.

Tami 2:52

Thank you, Erin. I'm so excited to be here. Um- Yes this is so much fun, and it's so fun to do this with you, so thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Ugh, love it. Thank you. I was gonna get started with a story just like your honey mustard story. Yes, yes. I have a story I think, shows a little bit, also with my husband, about communication and how we can talk about change a little bit. So back when, in like 2022, maybe 2023, a few years ago, I had two kids at home, a toddler and an infant, and I was really telling my husband one day,"I really want to work out more. I really wanna feel strong again," and all this type of stuff. and he was like,"Awesome. That's great," super supportive. But immediately, he went into telling. And he was like, he was like,"I got an idea for you. What if you just walk out to the mailbox every day? And that's a easy way to get some steps in. It's not a lot of exercise, but it's movement." Mm-hmm. And although it was a thoughtful and he thought it was very helpful way to help me- Then explained all the reasons why walking out to the mailbox and back was not gonna work, including the fact that I have a toddler and an infant, and how, how was I gonna drag them out there? And how was I going to... I can't leave them alone. You know, how was I gonna do this? And here I went from actually being motivated to change to suddenly demotivated because- Mm we talked,'cause I... All because my language was about all the reasons why that change didn't make sense.

Erin 4:23

Yes.

Tami 4:24

And that's why it's so important that we talk about communication and telling people what to do versus evoking their ideas. That's how we truly motivate change.

Erin 4:35

Yeah. So motivational interviewing.

Tami 4:39

Yes. Yes.

Erin 4:40

Poor husbands. Poor husbands.

Tami 4:43

I know. I know. Gosh. But

Erin 4:45

it's such a- They sound like good guys.

Tami 4:48

I know. They're, they are good guys. And communication is such a nuanced skill set, but it is so helpful when you're trying to figure out how to connect and communicate with someone. And I have lots of stories with my husband with communication because- in relationships, communication sometimes goes awry, and that just happens sometimes.

Erin 5:07

Yes. Yes. So when we define motivational interviewing, or it's for if you're the type of person that feels like you have to carry every conversation or, like, you're scared to have the conversation'cause you don't know what you're supposed to say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, when you feel that heaviness, this, I believe this, our conversation today, this episode, is going to help relieve you of that pressure. Yes. And you can really look at it through the frameworks that Tammy's going to give you. So can you define to us, that have never heard of motivational interviewing, which I had not before I met you, so tell us what it is.

Tami 5:44

So motivational interviewing is an evidence-based practice for how we talk about change with people. So I use it often with senior citizens and families, and that's my experience. But it actually got started in the rehabilitation world, and it was used there, and then now it's grown to so many different industries. Doctors and hospitals, they tend to use it a lot, um, because again, nuanced communication skills can help people be more motivated to change or sometimes demotivated, like I shared in that first story.

Erin 6:18

Mm-hmm, okay. So it's more... I think that sometimes inside senior living, when we... If you're a new sales director or an ED or even a nurse who's not comfortable in the sales process and you have to go in and talk to people and you don't know what to say, like, you just don't know what to say-

Tami 6:39

Yes

Erin 6:39

we're here to tell you that maybe you should listen- Yes more than you should talk.

Tami 6:46

Yes, absolutely. So go,

Erin 6:48

go there.

Tami 6:49

So when we talk about communication skills, it is so easy for us to overtake conversations with our communication, with us talking so much. When we feel insecure, when we don't know what to say, when we're trying to pressure or persuade, all those things can cause us to want to tell people what to do. But in reality, if we really wanna help them think through change, the best way we can support them is to maybe ask one or two curious questions and listen. And then I'm a big fan, motivational interviewing teaches a variety of communication skills, and one of those is reflective statements, and that's one of my favorites. and so when we start using curious questions with re- reflective statements, we create a safe space where people can truly start exploring their own thoughts and feelings on the i- idea of change, rather than us inserting our ideas and thoughts and opinions and telling people what to do.

Erin 7:52

honey mustard or exercising.

Tami 7:55

Exactly. Exactly. Because again, what I do wanna help everyone recognize, there's something that we talk about in the motivational interviewing world, but it's called the righting reflex. We all have a righting reflex, and that reflex is to help people. When we see someone stuck, we go,"Oh, I wanna step in and help you." When we see someone going,"I don't know what to do," all of a sudden you're like,"Let me tell you what to do." But again, my hope is that you take away from this, entire podcast episode, is that we start to not always suppress that righting reflex, but be intentional about when we suppress it or not suppress it, because there are times that we can help people better by helping themselves think through the situation.

Erin 8:41

And to validate what she's saying, when I am doing my one-on-one coaching, I really have to be careful because I can step in and solve people's problems for them, and that doesn't help anybody. I mean, it makes me feel good. Yeah.

Tami 9:00

Yeah.

Erin 9:00

But y- I need them to say it out loud to realize it, and because now they own the solution.

Tami 9:10

Exactly.

Erin 9:12

Yes.

Tami 9:13

And that is the heart of motivational interviewing. Yes. Helping people own the solution rather than us- Yes telling them what to do.

Erin 9:21

Yes. leaders listen because that's key. That's key in sales and that's key in operations.

Tami 9:26

Absolutely. one of my favorite tips- Mm-hmm that I love to tell people, just to remind them... Well, I have two, two, but I'll sh- start with one. It's wait. To remember the phrase WAIT, and that stands for why am I talking? And so again, it's so easy as leaders to all of a sudden talk over people or to tell people what to do, but if we take a moment and just go, Wait," you start to think about,"What am I really talking for? Do I have a purpose to my words, or am I just filling the space of silence?"'Cause some people are also nervous when there's silence. Mm-hmm. And as someone that is really proficient in motivational interviewing, I am never scared of silence. Like silence is where processing happens. and in fact, I encourage people to be mindful about how much we're talking, and, and the more advanced you learn the skill set, you learn to use less words. And the reason why is because, Erin, right now you're listening to me, or whoever's on this podcast, you're listening, you not only are processing every single word that I'm saying, you're processing the tone. Erin can see my body. You're processing my body language. You're processing all these things at once, which is a lot. And so when we use less words and we give silence and space, that allows people to actually process more what you're trying to communicate or what they're trying to think about and what they wanna say next.

Erin 11:06

Mm-hmm. I will tell you that the pause, that silence, can make me nervous. So when I started speaking- and I would ask a question and nobody would answer, I instantly felt panic.

Tami 11:23

Yeah.

Erin 11:23

Instantly felt panic. Yeah. Like, oh my God, nobody's listening or nobody understood the question, or what... Uh, w- it like reflected back on me that nobody wanted to answer the question. And so all of a sudden I got very, very, very, scared of the silence. Oh. I did. I did. Yeah. And I had to learn how to not allow that panic to dictate my tone, my tempo, and the flow of presentations because nobody answered them. Because to your point, sometimes you have to stay silent so somebody will speak.

Tami 12:00

Yes. Especially, you know, if you're speaking and you're asking them to really think about something that has some depth behind it, they need a solid five to 10 seconds to actually think about that. I always think about,'cause I ask people stories or,"Can you tell me about a time," or something like that, you know, people need time to process that and go,"Gosh," what story do I wanna share? What example do I have of this?" all those type of things, so you have to allow that space for people.

Erin 12:31

And I also heard somebody that I listen to say, in a sales perspective, when you ask a question, wait at least eight seconds.

Tami 12:40

Absolutely.

Erin 12:41

At least. Now, truly, eight seconds seems like nothing, but eight seconds is a long time if you're sitting here waiting on somebody to respond.

Tami 12:52

Yeah. I mean, it can feel that way. Yes. But I guess maybe I just have a mindset shift because I just go,"I'm giving you space."

Erin 13:01

Yes.

Tami 13:01

I'm giving you space to think.""And I'm not pressuring you to respond right away." Mm-hmm. Because here's the thing... Sorry, I'm jumping ahead to some things here.

Erin 13:10

Sure, yeah.

Tami 13:11

But when we ask questions, first off, I'm an advocate of asking curious questions. Mm-hmm. It is a great communication skill set you should have. However, I also am an advocate of reflective statements, and those- Mm-hmm can be really helpful as well. Mm-hmm. When you ask someone a question, they are thinking to themselves,"What are they asking me? What am I gonna say? And what do they wanna hear?" Mm-hmm. Which can create a little anxiety for them too. How am I going to respond? Especially if you're a leader asking, like,"Who is in charge of this?" Or,"Who didn't meet the deadline?" those questions really put people on the spot, and they get really uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. And so that's why also I love reflective statements because we can talk about some of those curious questions in a way that it doesn't obligate people to respond, because that's what a question does. It does create obligation to respond. Mm-hmm. And so an example is, asking someone,"What ideas have you tried to solve this problem?" That's a simple question. Not a bad question. It's a great question to ask. But if we said this as a statement, it could be,"Yeah, and you've thought about some ideas to try to solve this problem." And it sets a tone where you don't have to respond, but you can respond. mm-hmm. So it gives conversations a little bit more autonomy and control to the person you're speaking with because they don't have to necessarily respond to that. Mm-hmm. Yes. Which, that's powerful. When we're talking about change, that control piece of it is powerful because no one wants to feel controlled when we're talking about change. Otherwise, that becomes a compliance model, which is a whole nother topic.

Erin 14:58

Yeah. leadership to me inside of a community or inside of a high pressure situation, we feel responsible to fix things-

Tami 15:10

Yes

Erin 15:11

very quickly.

Tami 15:12

Yes.

Erin 15:13

and so, like from a sales perspective or even from an operations perspective, we instantly think families want answers- staff wants to be told what to do. Our associates just want direction. That's what they want from us. Yeah. And we feel the pressure to give them that.

Tami 15:30

Yeah.

Erin 15:30

Because we're fixers.

Tami 15:32

Yes.

Erin 15:32

We are fixers. Yes. we have to answer to everything, and tell the story, and communicate up, down, and all around, and all that other kind of stuff. Yes. But that means we own all of it too- Yes which is overwhelming. And so everything that you just said should eliminate the fixing problem that leaders have.

Tami 15:52

Yes. And here's, here's another example that happened to me when I was in a community working in the sales role. and I was in the community, and our corporate office came and said,"We need to increase occupancy, and we want you to do this by inviting the public to your regular events like Oktoberfest, happy hour, Easter," those type of things. And immediately I was like,"Eh, I don't know about that. I don't know, I don't know if that's really going to get you guys the solution that you want. It's going to help, by all means. I'm smart enough to recognize that any people coming in your building is going to help." But I was like,"I don't think that's necessarily gonna create that solution right now." Mm-hmm. So it immediately created resistance in me, even though I wanted high occupancy as well. I wanted to build our occupancy. They gave me a solution. I didn't like that solution. However, guess what would have happened differently if they would have evoked ideas from me? They would have said,"Hey, Tammy, you've been working in this community for quite a while. What ideas do you have to increase occupancy fairly quickly?" Mm-hmm. And I would have shared with them what I started doing, which was really helpful. I started creating small, curated private parties for my top prospects, for the people that I really thought were ready but just were struggling because they didn't- Mm know other residents, they didn't know other staff, all these other things. And so I started creating these small events, and our occupancy went up way faster, and I had ownership over it because- Mm I found the solution within myself. Mm-hmm. As a leader, I hope you remember that, yes, your solutions might be really helpful. You might have the best solution in your head, but we wanna try and pull that out of your team member before you give it to them first.

Erin 17:49

Because just like you said, when they own the solution, they are influenced and motivated to do it. To do it.

Tami 17:57

Yes. Yes. And to do it well. Yes. And to have it be successful. All those things. Yes. So as leaders, if you're looking at your staff and going,"I've got so many people I have to tell what to do," maybe take a second to pause and go,"What ideas do they have to help with whatever problem that we're facing?" Maybe it's a staffing issue, maybe it's a financial issue, or maybe it's, like, just a, a workflow process issue. How can we engage them in the process to solve

Erin 18:25

that? Mm-hmm. Advice makes you feel good.

Tami 18:28

Yes. It does. 100%.

Erin 18:29

I, I like to feel good by giving people advice and solving problems, yes. Yes. But if I... I also want more time. I want to feel less overwhelmed. Mm. I want to feel less like I have to make all the decisions, and so I need to take a deep breath and I need to start asking questions so they own the solution.

Tami 18:47

Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely.

Erin 18:50

That is why motivating, motivation, motivational interviewing is important for us.

Tami 18:57

Yes. it is communication skills, and as leaders, we have to be able to communicate effectively with our teams. The other thing I wanna say, when you have... Just a communication tip. when you have ideas in your head that you really wanna share with someone and you're like,"Oh, man. They're not getting there. They are not getting to viable solutions." They might be coming up with solutions, but you're like,"I'm not sure if we can do that." You know? Whether they don't have the credentials to do that, whether you don't have the money to do that, something along those lines. Another way that you can look at it is just ask permission before you share the idea. That allows the, your teammate to still be in the ownership role, because you can say,"Hey, teammate. You've talked about all these great ideas, and they're really great ideas. I'm not sure if all of them are feasible. But I do have one idea that's been rolling around as you've been talking about these ideas that I think might be helpful. What do you think of it?" Or, actually, before you say that,"Do you mind if I share my idea?"

Erin 20:02

Mm-hmm.

Tami 20:02

And then they have the opportunity to say,"Yes, I'm open to it," or,"No." This is also how you engage how open they are to change at this point, too.

Erin 20:11

Yeah. You become a partner, which I think is important. An ally. Because, again, people support what they helped create.

Tami 20:19

Yes.

Erin 20:19

And there's so many, there's so many opportunities for people to say it didn't work because they didn't wanna do it.

Tami 20:25

Exactly. Exactly.

Erin 20:27

So good. Okay, so let's talk about empathy versus sympathy.

Tami 20:30

Yes. One of my favorite topics. Do you know the difference between empathy and, versus sympathy?

Erin 20:37

sympathy, this is my layman's term, I feel sorry for you. I feel, sad for you. Empathy is more like,"Dude, I know how bad this-"

Tami 20:49

Yeah

Erin 20:49

sucks." Yeah. You know? I understand. I have gone through the same thing, and I feel your pain, Yeah.

Tami 20:58

I think, uh, you're, you're spot on Empathy is more acknowledgement, a little bit of mental understanding but not emotional understanding. Mm-hmm. And then empathy is emotional feelings. It's feeling it with people. So, like one of the prime examples I use when I'm teaching or talking to people about the difference of empathy versus sympathy is like when someone says to you, I'm really depressed," and you go,"That sucks. I'm sorry." that's sympathy. Versus,"Wow. Yeah, it's like this cloud is over you that you just can't shake and you don't know how to get rid of it." That's empathy. Mm-hmm. I don't know if that's how the person I'm talking to views empathy, but I'm trying so desperately to get out of my own head and into what I think their head might be thinking in that moment- to articulate whatever experience they might be feeling.

Erin 21:59

Mm-hmm.

Tami 21:59

And that's how we get a deeper sense of empathy and a deeper connection with people. Mm-hmm. Also really fast. Because all of a sudden you feel heard and understood.

Erin 22:10

Yeah. So why is empathy, do you think, more effective in connection and trust?

Tami 22:18

Well, because empathy is what helps people to feel seen and heard.

Erin 22:22

And

Tami 22:24

sympathy actually creates quite a bit of disconnection. When someone shares something really vulnerable with you like,"I'm depressed," and you say,"Oh, I'm sorry. That sucks," like that is a moment- that could have been- could have had connection that you chose not to get into. But again, when you dive into, trying to articulate maybe what they're feeling through a reflective statement, which is that example that I did, or even asking a question,"What does that feel like for you?" Mm-hmm. I'm here for you. I wanna understand what that feels like for you." Like, that is how we foster more connection in those situations. And when we talk about this in senior living, I think it's so important because so many seniors will say,"Well, I'm, I'm not ready to move." Mm-hmm."I'm not ready." And that's one of my prime phrases that I love to try to articulate what they might be feeling in that situation. Mm-hmm. And some people, it's you don't wanna be pushed into a decision that you're not ready to make. That's a reflective statement I say often. Another one that is really common,'cause I worked in a community that had independent living, assisted living, and memory care, and we had like these independent houses, outside of the community as well. and so another one that I would say is when someone would say, I'm just not ready," I would say- Yeah, and you look around this community and you don't see other people like you. I don't know if that's actually how they felt, but oftentimes it was younger senior citizens, people in their 70s that were vibrant and active- that looked around at a culture that felt a little bit more aged than they were ready to be around. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes when we just acknowledge the elephant in the room through empathy, that's the key, through empathy- Mm-hmm not only are we helping them to feel seen and heard to where they go,"Oh my gosh, Tammy gets it. I don't have to vocalize that I'm 75 and I don't wanna be around other old people," which is hard. It is hard for you. You've been in this industry for a while. You've noticed that. It is hard for them to articulate that. It is. So I did it for them so they feel seen and heard, but in addition to that, it gives them the opportunity, because I didn't ask a question, I did a reflective statement, they can either go,"Yeah, that's exactly it, and here's why I'm struggling with that," or they might just nod their head. Mm-hmm. But either way, you've created a moment of connection with them.

Erin 24:57

Yeah. What gets in the way becomes the way. Like- Exactly truly. You have to know what they're talking about. But I like when you said, I mean, when you think about, okay, what gets in the way becomes the way-

Tami 25:09

Yeah

Erin 25:09

and you're trying to use empathy to connect, what holds people back is they don't wanna dig- Yeah and they don't wanna be vulnerable.

Tami 25:17

Nope.

Erin 25:19

So the sales- It- director or the ED or the nurse is like,"I don't have time to ask these questions, to connect in this way,

Tami 25:26

blah,

Erin 25:26

blah, blah," whatever it is. But that is gonna save you time in the long run.

Tami 25:34

Absolutely. um, real quick, can I share the story about how I got started with motivational interviewing? Yeah. Okay. Go for

Erin 25:39

it.

Tami 25:40

So back in 2010, I started in senior living. I'm just gonna share my whole, like, evolution here. Sure. Yeah. Um, back in 2010, I started in senior living. I got offered the job as a sales assistant, so I was just helping with sales and turning on lights and all that type of stuff. So within the first two weeks of starting there, my boss had come up to me and she said,"Are you interested in learning the sales role? I'd like to work towards that at some point." And I actually said to her, no, I wasn't, because they were doing some high-pressure sales, and that just wasn't my forte, and I was like,"I'm not sure about this." So about one month later, I went to a training with David Smith and the Sherpa Crew, and learning about prospect-centered selling, and I was like, okay, this, connecting with people as a, on a human level feels really good to me. Mm-hmm. And being vulnerable and trying to understand how they're feeling and not shying away from these hard conversations- Feels really good to me,'cause it helps them ultimately. Helps them to think and process and figure out their next steps. And so I did that for about, I'd say maybe nine months, a year, somewhere around there, and then my company started teaching us motivational interviewing. Mm-hmm. So in addition to this skill set. So my entire sales career has been both these tools overlapped one another. And I started, when I started in 2010, our occupancy I think it was around 85%. Um, and then by 2012 when we had motivational interviewing training and this, we started hitting 95 and above. And then, from 2012, 2013 to when I moved up to the corporate office in 2017, we, I, we always had 98% or higher the entire time. Mm-hmm. And I really credit it to creating safe spaces for people. We stopped fundamentally in the sales process, and as leaders going into conversations going,"How am I gonna sell you this? How am I going to persuade this to you? How am I going to get you to do this today?" Just create a safe space to make sure that, you know what? I wanna make sure that they come back to me, they don't ghost me. So I'm going to create a safe space to where we can talk about this today, but also that I could follow up tomorrow, and it's not weird and it's not awkward because I created that safe space in the first place. Yes.

Erin 28:17

Yes. Yes, which is empathy- Yes not sympathy.

Tami 28:21

Yes. It's empathy. It's not judgment. It's not over-talking them. It's listening more. It's reflective statements. All of these things combined is what creates that safe space to where people feel like they can share, because we're not rushing conversations. We're not saying,"Oh, I've got another tour in an hour," you know,"I gotta wrap this up." We're saying,"I, I'll sit here for 15 seconds while you think about that really hard question I asked you." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Would it be easier to move in, now with your spouse that has dementia, or wait until he no longer can be part of the decision? That's a hard question. Mm-hmm. That is one that they might not be able to answer right in this moment, and we also have to

Erin 29:06

recognize that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. in, in empathy lines, like, I was really good at... I love discovery- Yes as a salesperson and as an executive director, because- I, my husband tells me all the time,"Your questions drive me nuts."'Cause I just always wanna, I just always wanna know, like, why? Why do we do, make these decisions? Why am I- Yeah thinking this way? Like, I, I like... I'm a person who likes root cause analysis. Yeah. A lot of people don't. but some of the empathy statements I would make, just because I could relate on a very personal level to caregivers who had all this apprehension about moving in or the first day, and I was... most people know that I have an autistic son, but when he was four years old, I sent him to his first spend the night, you know, summer camp. And he was... You weren't supposed to go till you were five, but he went to that preschool, and he knew everybody, and they told me he would be fine. But I took the first two to three days off and sat by the phone. The camp was literally 15, 12 to 15 minutes from my house. Sat by the phone and waited because I knew, I knew that he would- Yeah he would want me. He would need me.

Tami 30:22

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin 30:23

I wasted 48 hours of free time, okay? Yeah. And he was absolutely fine. He was absolutely fine. And, that is an empathy statement because we think we're more important than we actually are half the time, number one. Number two, when people are in different environments, they react and act different ways. Yeah. And you can tell people, once you know if they've had children or not, you know, let's talk about the first time you dropped your kid off at school or at daycare or their first spend the night camp. Like, all that anxiety that you felt, and they were just fine.

Tami 31:06

Yes. Yes.

Erin 31:07

You know? And now it's my favorite week of the year, and I am gone. Yeah. I am gone. Yeah. Don't call me. I love it. Now

Tami 31:13

you're taking advantage of it. Yes.

Erin 31:16

Yes. Yes. But that is that empathy statement to tell people, like-

Tami 31:25

Yeah

Erin 31:25

trust me, they're gonna be fine. They're gonna be upset- Well- for, like, the first 24 hours, and then after that, it's gonna lessen. And maybe in seven days it will be so much better.

Tami 31:37

Yes. Well, and so much of, um... I'm sorry I'm gonna be referencing a children's book here.

Erin 31:43

Yeah.

Tami 31:43

Yeah. But, Dan Siegel wrote The Whole-Brain Child, and so much of what he talks about, in that book is calming the amygdala. And when we state how people are feeling or acknowledge how people are feeling, that's what calms their amygdala so they can actually connect with you. So when we talk about that caregiver situation and you're sitting down with them- And they're so worried or anxious or whatever about making this decision or whatever, just acknowledging by saying,"Wow, you're really worried about this, and you want this to go well." Mm-hmm. That is going to make them feel so heard and seen- Yes, yes in that moment. And what I like about it is,"You're really worried about this," is reflecting how they feel. Mm-hmm. And,"You want this to go well," is reflecting what they want. Mm-hmm. And that is one of my best communication tools I have, is helping people to be mindful. If you are gonna try doing reflective listening, to try reflecting how people feel and then reflecting what they want,'cause that is how we keep conversations moving forward. Mm-hmm. If you start to get more resistance, drop off the what you want. Focus on how they feel. Just keep- Mm-hmm on talking about how they feel,'cause that's how we create more of that safe space for people.

Erin 33:02

Yeah. And those are powerful reflective statements that keep the conversations going forward. Absolutely. That right there. Absolutely. That's a reflective statement. I-"You're feeling sad and overwhelmed, and you want them to feel happy- Yes and involved." Yes,

Tami 33:24

yes.

Erin 33:25

And that's why you're here." Yes."Even though you feel sad-"

Tami 33:29

Yes

Erin 33:29

guilty, but you also feel that way when they're at home alone."

Tami 33:34

Exactly. Exactly.

Erin 33:38

And you want that feeling

Tami 33:40

to go away." Absolutely.

Erin 33:41

Yes.

Tami 33:42

So as a leader, I think leaders encounter this all the time, where someone comes up to them and they're like,"You know, Boss, I don't know what to do in this situation. Help me." Mm-hmm. You know? And this is a prime opportunity to, again, reflect how they feel and also reflect what they want."You're not quite sure of the solution, but you want some direction and guidan- guidance in this." Again, that's how we reflect how they feel and what they want to keep that going forward,'cause most likely they're gonna respond with,"Yes, I'm looking for guidance. Help me."

Erin 34:12

Yes.

Tami 34:12

That sort of thing.

Erin 34:13

Yes. Yeah. So when we're talking about reflective statements, let's talk about questions, because s- questions are a, a power leverage that a, some people use, but not a lot. Yes. Okay? So what makes a question powerful versus being ineffective?

Tami 34:30

Ultimately, I like to think of if you're gonna ask a question, I want you to ask a question that evokes them to problem solve the solution. Okay. Those are powerful questions. So anything that says,"What's not working about the current situation?" is also going to help elicit... Sorry, I'm gonna get into some deeper talks here. That's going to elicit change talk from them. What's not working about this current situation is going to elicit change talk. Mm-hmm. Versus if you ask,"Well, why has- hasn't this worked?" or"Why won't, this solution work?" All of a sudden you're listening all the reasons why that won't work for the solution, and we call it sustain talk. You're listening why they should keep things status quo. Mm-hmm. So it's so important that we ask questions that evoke from them their ideas on how to problem solve as much as problem, as much as possible. Yes.

Erin 35:32

Yes. So, like, questions like, what feels most challenging right now?

Tami 35:37

Um, that's- Would you

Erin 35:38

say that that's an effective question?

Tami 35:40

That is going to... that i- so that's a helpful question for you to know in general, but that most likely will get a little bit of sustain talk where they're gonna talk about the problem situation. Okay.

Erin 35:51

If you switch- So that's sustain talk.

Tami 35:53

If you switch that slightly differently, if you switch that a little bit, it will change to... Say the question again.

Erin 36:03

What feels most challenging right now?

Tami 36:07

What ideas do you have to solve the challenge right now? That's going to draw from them- Okay change talk and help them be a part of the solution.

Erin 36:19

Okay. So, like, what do you think needs to happen next? That's a change- That is- Is that a change talk question?

Tami 36:27

Yes, that is a perfect and a great question to ask,'cause you're eliciting their ideas and you're eliciting change talk from

Erin 36:35

them. Okay. So leaders, understand. Yeah. Okay, so let me see. Okay. What ideas... What was the first one? Okay, the first question is what feels most challenging right now? And so you said what ideas?

Tami 36:50

Yep, ideas or solutions do you have to the challenges right

Erin 36:55

now? Okay. What ideas or solutions do you have to the challenges that you're facing right now, that you're having right now? Yes. Because that's eliciting change talk. Change talk.

Tami 37:07

And it's eliciting them to problem solve instead of you problem solving.

Erin 37:12

Okay. Okay. And then what do you think needs to happen next is-

Tami 37:17

Perfect

Erin 37:18

a perfect question.

Tami 37:20

Yes. Okay. Another simple one is, what options do you see from here? Whatever... And, and I love that'cause it's such a generic question, but, I mean, you could use that for, having a one-on-one with a team, a team member that is struggling with something and you're trying to help them come up with the solutions. That could be used, in, honestly, in, in sales. I did it actually all the time as a closing- closing thing. We've talked about A, B, and C today. What options do you see from here?'Cause it helps them- Yeah with ownership into I just laid out some options for you. Do you see those as options, or do you see other options? so that helps a lot. But yeah, what options do you see from here is a great way that helps them to also start problem-solving and talking about change talk.

Erin 38:07

Yeah. You know, I never really looked at questions and reflective statements the way that I do now, now that I'm... Like, that's my job. And, you know, the goal of every coach or i- and really a leader if you really wanna be a coaching, mentoring type leader is ownership- Yeah influence, emotional intelligence, and capacity. You're building that in the other person-

Tami 38:32

Yes

Erin 38:33

but you have to have it first.

Tami 38:35

Yes. Absolutely.

Erin 38:37

and asking questions in a curious tone, to your point, and mood, right- Mm-hmm you are building that in other people and in yourself. And just like any new skill, it's gonna feel really weird and uncomfortable at first.

Tami 38:55

Yes. Absolutely. But you're gonna get better at it with practice. Yes. And I really, really wanna encourage you, if you are going, listening to this podcast and you're going,"Man, I, I do wanna get better at my communication skills. I wanna try starting to do this," a simple way to start practicing reflective listening, also for you, Erin, if you wanna try this too- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm is go to your grocery store and instead of going to self-checkout- Mm-hmm'cause I do that all the time- Mm-hmm go to the ac- actual checker, ask them one question, a simple one like,"What's it like to be on your feet all day?" And try to do two statements of reflective listening after that. Okay.'Cause ultimately in motivational interviewing, the cadence or the tempo is typically one question for every two reflective statements. So again, both questions and reflective statements are really powerful, but they're new skills for people, so it takes a little bit longer to learn. The last thing I'll say is if anyone has not checked out the YouTube video called Backwards Bicycle... Have you seen that, Erin, as well? Mm-mm. Check that out. That is a phenomenal video about how when we try to learn new things, it is a struggle because our- Mm-hmm neural pathways are so carved in one direction that when we're trying to learn something new, we have to very intentionally practice. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen. Those skills are not gonna actually get into our, our processing and how we interact with people.

Erin 40:35

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true. I will tell you- When I had just left the community and, you know, for the last time, and my nervous system was just on fire and I didn't know what to do with myself, and there were so many things. I just went to the gas station and just gave compliments for no reason.

Tami 40:55

Oh my gosh, I love that."Your

Erin 40:58

hair looks so good today.""Thank you so much." Like, I was just trying... Because, you know, when, like, when you're in a community, you have this opportunity to compliment and get compliments all the time. It is a give and a receive. Yes. And I was floundering. Yes. And, and so it's interesting that you bring that point up because you can easily retrain your nervous system by talking to strangers- Yes when you're intentional about it. And you can easily learn a new skill with, and practice it with discovery inside sales and inside leadership, and also getting the reps in at the gas station or the grocery store.

Tami 41:40

Exactly. And I love, I love that you brought that up, too, because at the end of the day, we feel most self-conscious trying new things in front of people we know. So again, if you do it at the gas station, the grocery store, whatever places that feel safe for you, just start trying. Mm-hmm. Trying to connect with people in a different way. Mm-hmm. And see what

Erin 42:00

happens. Oh, that's so good. Again- Yeah the goal, and this is why I believe that sales is leadership. You know? Like, to me, sales is service, leadership is sales. Yes. Like, I just believe that. And they all have the same outcomes. Like, if you can focus on ownership, influence, emotional intelligence, and building people's capacity-

Tami 42:23

Yes

Erin 42:23

then you're going to have followers as a leader, and you're gonna have sales as a sales leader.

Tami 42:29

Yes.

Erin 42:30

Because capacity is key. How can I get this overwhelmed person in front of me to realize they can handle this?

Tami 42:37

Yes. Yes.

Erin 42:39

That is motivational interviewing.

Tami 42:42

Yes. And what I love about that is you're right, if leaders did that with their team members, they're gonna have a flourishing team member. And if we in senior living sales do that with prospects and you create a safe space, not only are they going to feel comfortable coming back to you, but they're also gonna be giving referrals left and right.'Cause they're like,"I toured five places, and only one place made me feel safe and non-pressured." Yes.

Erin 43:09

Yes.

Tami 43:10

And, and focused on my feelings, and didn't hide away from the fact that, I'm really depressed, or didn't hide, you know, shy away from c- talking about my husband's dementia and what that means for me as a caregiver. Even though, I'm, I want to get support, but it also means a loss of purpose for me." Again, when we dive into those conversations, not only are they feeling seen and heard for- Building occupancy in our community and adding to our community, but they're also most likely gonna be doing referrals-

Erin 43:40

Absolutely with

Tami 43:42

occupancy.

Erin 43:43

Yeah. and on that note, as we wrap it up here, I will say from an operational standpoint, I was speaking to a group of leaders here recently, and I said, um, there are a bunch of administrators in the state of Alabama, because we have really very hard regs, that have to issue these 30-day notices based on our regs. And how you essentially break up with people is, like, your legacy, okay? And so they would just receive a letter with no explanation, and it would be a form letter, and it would just be... Like, they would have many, many questions. Mm-hmm. And I can't tell you, I would get at least two to three of these calls a month. Where I received a 30-day notice, and I don't even understand why. Now, as a leader, I have a choice in this moment.

Tami 44:33

Yep.

Erin 44:33

I can have a conversation with them-

Tami 44:36

Yep

Erin 44:36

knowing that I cannot meet their needs.

Tami 44:39

Mm-hmm.

Erin 44:40

Or I can dig to see if I can meet their needs, depending on what it is. or I can literally explain the regs to them and help them feel less rejected and dejected. And I may not get a move in from that, but because of the energy I, I invested in that, there is now energy that's just waiting to be returned back to me.

Tami 45:01

Yes. Yes. Virtual high five. Yes. Yes.

Erin 45:06

Exactly. That's exactly what you just said there. Yeah. And you can do that from a sales perspective. But from a leadership perspective, whether you're a nurse or you're the executive director, that's the same concept for you.

Tami 45:20

Yes. Yeah.

Erin 45:22

And that is sales. That is sales. Yeah. That is also being a nice human.

Tami 45:26

Absolutely. one of my... to kind of wrap that up, one of my favorite phrases that the ED that I worked with, the executive director, said to us all the time, and so it's ingrained in me, and I love it, is, do what's right for residents and the market will reward you."

Erin 45:43

Absolutely. Yes.

Tami 45:44

And like, always held onto that, and I even hold onto that now in my current situation. Like, if we just keep on doing what's right for people in every situation, even if it is hard or challenging, like you said, having that actual conversation versus just sending them a letter in the mail, the market is going to reward you with that. Yes.

Erin 46:05

Yes.

Tami 46:05

That energy's coming back

Erin 46:07

at

Tami 46:07

some point.

Erin 46:08

Yeah. If you never have the time, you'll never have the time.

Tami 46:11

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Erin 46:14

Yeah.

Tami 46:14

Oh,

Erin 46:15

very.

Tami 46:15

That's so true.

Erin 46:16

Yes, okay. Tami Calais, I feel, I feel like I'm gonna go watch, any motivational interviewing, follow you on LinkedIn and all the places. How do they find you? Because you, I s- I love your videos on LinkedIn. I've attended a webinar that you have been a part of. Love it. It's really good work, and you're gonna wanna take the time to listen to what she has to say because the work up front is going to pay dividends in- Yes the long run. Absolutely. So how do we find you?

Tami 46:47

You can find me on LinkedIn@tamicalais. I also have a group on there, it's called Senior Living Senior Housing Professionals Enhancing Your Skills- Mm-hmm where I'm focused on sales professionals and just do- sharing tips and reminders for the sales- Mm-hmm process in senior living. Um, but you can also find me on social media under Aging and Change Coach, where I share a lot more with families navigating these conversations and how they can do this via motivational interviewing skills.

Erin 47:19

Yeah, so Tami, spell your last name.

Tami 47:21

My last name is C-A-L-A-I-S. Yeah, and Tami

Erin 47:25

is T-A-M-I.

Tami 47:28

T-A-M-I. I was gonna say, so if anyone also would like to email me, my email is Calais, which is C-A-L-A-I-S, seniorconsult@gmail.com. Yeah, and I

Erin 47:39

will put that and all the links into the show notes as well. So we would love your feedback. If you go to the website of the podcast, there's an opportunity to, um, speak or leave me some, a message, any questions you may have, I will get that to Tami, and like and subscribe. And this is an episode that is worth sharing, for sure. Um- Yes if you have a sales director or a nurse, I believe this episode is worth their time, to listen to. So thank you. Thank you, Tami, for your expertise. I greatly appreciate it.

Tami 48:14

Yeah. I also wanna say, if they end up trying- Yes going to the gas station or the- Yes grocery store, let us know. Reach out to Erin and I so we can- Yes celebrate with you. That's awesome.

Erin 48:25

Yes, that would be great. I'm, and I'm just here to tell you, it works. It just- Yes it works. She's right. It works. so as always, for my listeners, aspire for more for you, knowing that you are already enough. Have a great day.

Tami 48:42

Thank you.